The Final Repair Guide to 5.4 Cam Phaser Tick/Knock Sound
Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
After all of that, what do you have to lose? Seems like you couldn't do much more for it!
Livernois kit is $700, and you don't have to pull the cover if your chains and guides are already done. Seems like after all you have done it should purr like a kitten! What did you use for parts? As far as timing stuff? OEM? Phasers? OEM, Dorman,etc? From what I have read on posts here in this forum, the dorman phasers are re-work waiting to happen. I have no proof of this, just the vibe I get reading peoples complaints
Thanks Ride,
Phasers are EBay. Assume Chinese. Why kept changing those. I can afford $89 bucks apiece but only up to a point.
$700 for cam lock will be my last resort.
Livernois kit is $700, and you don't have to pull the cover if your chains and guides are already done. Seems like after all you have done it should purr like a kitten! What did you use for parts? As far as timing stuff? OEM? Phasers? OEM, Dorman,etc? From what I have read on posts here in this forum, the dorman phasers are re-work waiting to happen. I have no proof of this, just the vibe I get reading peoples complaints
Thanks Ride,
Phasers are EBay. Assume Chinese. Why kept changing those. I can afford $89 bucks apiece but only up to a point.
$700 for cam lock will be my last resort.
Member
Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
It sounds like whoever rebuilt your motor did something really wrong, especially since the result was a mutilated phaser. Crappy phasers on their own won't cause the problems you're having. A bad mass air sensor could tell the computer to add too little or too much fuel. Bad oxygen sensors could also be the cause of your lean code. I would start with fixing what's broken before modifying it and throwing another variable into the mix
The Mass Air sensor been cleaned with the electrical spray cleaner found at the
auto Zone
Cant remember when the O2 sensors have been done, though?
Thanks Elliot!
The Mass Air sensor been cleaned with the electrical spray cleaner found at the
auto Zone
Cant remember when the O2 sensors have been done, though?
Thanks Elliot!
Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 57
Likes: 10
From: Richmond BC
@coolride , Couple of observations / comments. I notice you are considering locking out your Phasers. While I was chasing a P0022 code on my 2004 5.4L, I discovered (Hacked) some OBDII parameter ID's for VCT System operations and created custom gauges on my Torque Pro scanner app. ie: the ECU's requested RETARD in crankshaft degrees, the VCT Solenoid Duty Cycle in %, and Cam Error which shows how many crankshaft degrees the cams are 'out of sync' with the ECU's requested retard (as determined by the CPS sensors, and CKP sensor).
I have observed VCT operation on the scanner many times, both before and AFTER doing a complete cam timing job. I can tell you that; under a VERY HIGH percentage of our normal driving conditions, the VCT system is applying some - and in many instances A LOT of - variable cam RETARD. The following screenshot shows normal crusing down the road at about 55 mph, and cams are retarded almost the maximum of 60 to 70 crankshaft degrees.
Cam Phaser retard under normal 55mph cruising conditions.
Under heavy engine load, or at idle, they go to full advance. This convinced ME to NOT lock them out at the full advance position with lockouts.
Your VCT Solenoids would have to "STICK" open to cause over-retard. You can remove them and energize them with 12volts momentarily and hear/feel them "click". BUT --- The Motorcraft OBDII Theory manual says that P0022 is set when (bank2) cam retard is > 5º more than requested retard for 5 seconds. In my case, that wound up being because the chains were just worn / stretched (212,000 mi) and or chain guide was literally in little pieces in the pan / pickup screen: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...2/#post4587382
Once the chains are stretched to the limit of the tensioner's expansion capability, the 'sprocket' cannot advance the cams to base zero, and an over-retard code is set. Also, results in the chain beating the crap out of the guides and breaking them.
You CAN remove the Pan easily by dropping the cross member on a 2x2.
Whichever way you choose to go, good luck
I have observed VCT operation on the scanner many times, both before and AFTER doing a complete cam timing job. I can tell you that; under a VERY HIGH percentage of our normal driving conditions, the VCT system is applying some - and in many instances A LOT of - variable cam RETARD. The following screenshot shows normal crusing down the road at about 55 mph, and cams are retarded almost the maximum of 60 to 70 crankshaft degrees.
Cam Phaser retard under normal 55mph cruising conditions.
Under heavy engine load, or at idle, they go to full advance. This convinced ME to NOT lock them out at the full advance position with lockouts.
Your VCT Solenoids would have to "STICK" open to cause over-retard. You can remove them and energize them with 12volts momentarily and hear/feel them "click". BUT --- The Motorcraft OBDII Theory manual says that P0022 is set when (bank2) cam retard is > 5º more than requested retard for 5 seconds. In my case, that wound up being because the chains were just worn / stretched (212,000 mi) and or chain guide was literally in little pieces in the pan / pickup screen: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...2/#post4587382
Once the chains are stretched to the limit of the tensioner's expansion capability, the 'sprocket' cannot advance the cams to base zero, and an over-retard code is set. Also, results in the chain beating the crap out of the guides and breaking them.
You CAN remove the Pan easily by dropping the cross member on a 2x2.
Whichever way you choose to go, good luck
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 229
Likes: 7
From: SC
I will be changing the VCT solenoid Saturday. I am hoping it works, but with 200,000 miles on the clock, I don't expect any miracles! It runs really good otherwise. This may work to buy me some time at least? If I can find one, I think I am going to check oil pressure too. I have a mechanical gauge I can set up temporary to see what we have going on between cold/hot conditions. Hopefully it has enough pressure at hot idle.
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 229
Likes: 7
From: SC
If things are as the PO told me, this truck has never had any issues. He claims to have used synthetic oil since day one. Says he changed oil before 5000 miles in most cases. Of course it could have been a sales pitch too! I got as good deal on the truck. If I have to do the whole timing kit I still won't be into this truck that bad. I am hoping for an easy fix but I am realistic about it. I expect I will have to dig in. And if I do, I will do it right. It is too much work to do any of that poorly! Hopefully I can inspect some of the left timing chain guide with valve cover off, that may tell me a lot. I guess if the chain is loose, I will know what I have to do! But, fingers crossed that the VCT solenoid works for now.
LightningRod
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,412
Likes: 651
From: San Antonio Texas
SPECIFICALLY, P0022 means (according to Motorcraft's OBDII Theory of Operation) that the driver's side (Bank2) camshaft (as determined by the CPS compared to the CKP signals) has been retarded more than the PCM's requested retard position by more than five (5) crankshaft degrees - for more than five (5) seconds.
I absolutely agree with you that:
and that's one of the first / easiest things to check. But considering the Crankshaft / Cam rotation ratio of 2-to-1, means the Cams have to track retard / advance command pretty darned accurately. AND in my case, at 212,000 miles the chains were stretched enough the Tensioners were FULLY extended to their limit. With the guides broken, they could no longer place any more tension on them. Although the chains had NOT jumped a tooth, with new solenoids verified to operate correctly by energizing them, I had a hard recurring P0022. All the slack in a stretched / loose chain is pushed to one side. Apparently that is enough to retard the Cams 2 1/2 degrees. New Pasers, chains, guides, and tensioners and all corrected it - with the same (new) solenoids that had been in there for a couple thousand miles or so.
Other things that "CAN" and "DO" cause a P0022. I have noticed on my custom gauges that thicker oil imposes a NOTICABLE 'lag' in cam retard/advance responsiveness and I am not at all sure it could exceed 5 seconds. I even went away from 40 weight for this reason. Also, a). the VCT Solenoid valve body has another screen in it almost identical to that in the VCT solenoid. It can also clog and/or break. b). A chain jumping a tooth can produce either a P0022 (or, I have recently learned - a P0345). c). defective Cam bearings / followers producing excessive drag that the Phaser cannot overcome with low oil pressure will definitely cause P0022. d). I'm not sure some sensor or wiring problems could not give a P0022.
So, its sorta' like saying a P0430 means your bank 2 CAT is bad. May be, but its only an indicator. It's up to us to challenge the sensors or other sensors / symptoms to sort it out.
Junior Member
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Your noise will lead to a new engine
That sound is you engine getting ready to die forever. Trust me, I tried everything and every mechanic in town.
Low oil pressure, 04 /08 bad history.
I am waiting to pick mine up with a new motor. $7100.00
Low oil pressure, 04 /08 bad history.
I am waiting to pick mine up with a new motor. $7100.00
Member
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 57
Likes: 10
From: Richmond BC
@Brewskey - absolutely no disrespect intended here and I hate Political Correctness as bad as Donald Trump - but for the benefit of anyone who might encounter one of the exceptions to your diagnosis, I would like to add:
SPECIFICALLY, P0022 means (according to Motorcraft's OBDII Theory of Operation) that the driver's side (Bank2) camshaft (as determined by the CPS compared to the CKP signals) has been retarded more than the PCM's requested retard position by more than five (5) crankshaft degrees - for more than five (5) seconds.
I absolutely agree with you that:
and that's one of the first / easiest things to check. But considering the Crankshaft / Cam rotation ratio of 2-to-1, means the Cams have to track retard / advance command pretty darned accurately. AND in my case, at 212,000 miles the chains were stretched enough the Tensioners were FULLY extended to their limit. With the guides broken, they could no longer place any more tension on them. Although the chains had NOT jumped a tooth, with new solenoids verified to operate correctly by energizing them, I had a hard recurring P0022. All the slack in a stretched / loose chain is pushed to one side. Apparently that is enough to retard the Cams 2 1/2 degrees. New Pasers, chains, guides, and tensioners and all corrected it - with the same (new) solenoids that had been in there for a couple thousand miles or so.
Other things that "CAN" and "DO" cause a P0022. I have noticed on my custom gauges that thicker oil imposes a NOTICABLE 'lag' in cam retard/advance responsiveness and I am not at all sure it could exceed 5 seconds. I even went away from 40 weight for this reason. Also, a). the VCT Solenoid valve body has another screen in it almost identical to that in the VCT solenoid. It can also clog and/or break. b). A chain jumping a tooth can produce either a P0022 (or, I have recently learned - a P0345). c). defective Cam bearings / followers producing excessive drag that the Phaser cannot overcome with low oil pressure will definitely cause P0022. d). I'm not sure some sensor or wiring problems could not give a P0022.
So, its sorta' like saying a P0430 means your bank 2 CAT is bad. May be, but its only an indicator. It's up to us to challenge the sensors or other sensors / symptoms to sort it out.
SPECIFICALLY, P0022 means (according to Motorcraft's OBDII Theory of Operation) that the driver's side (Bank2) camshaft (as determined by the CPS compared to the CKP signals) has been retarded more than the PCM's requested retard position by more than five (5) crankshaft degrees - for more than five (5) seconds.
I absolutely agree with you that:
and that's one of the first / easiest things to check. But considering the Crankshaft / Cam rotation ratio of 2-to-1, means the Cams have to track retard / advance command pretty darned accurately. AND in my case, at 212,000 miles the chains were stretched enough the Tensioners were FULLY extended to their limit. With the guides broken, they could no longer place any more tension on them. Although the chains had NOT jumped a tooth, with new solenoids verified to operate correctly by energizing them, I had a hard recurring P0022. All the slack in a stretched / loose chain is pushed to one side. Apparently that is enough to retard the Cams 2 1/2 degrees. New Pasers, chains, guides, and tensioners and all corrected it - with the same (new) solenoids that had been in there for a couple thousand miles or so.
Other things that "CAN" and "DO" cause a P0022. I have noticed on my custom gauges that thicker oil imposes a NOTICABLE 'lag' in cam retard/advance responsiveness and I am not at all sure it could exceed 5 seconds. I even went away from 40 weight for this reason. Also, a). the VCT Solenoid valve body has another screen in it almost identical to that in the VCT solenoid. It can also clog and/or break. b). A chain jumping a tooth can produce either a P0022 (or, I have recently learned - a P0345). c). defective Cam bearings / followers producing excessive drag that the Phaser cannot overcome with low oil pressure will definitely cause P0022. d). I'm not sure some sensor or wiring problems could not give a P0022.
So, its sorta' like saying a P0430 means your bank 2 CAT is bad. May be, but its only an indicator. It's up to us to challenge the sensors or other sensors / symptoms to sort it out.
All good , I have had that code close to a dozen times and every time It was the solenoid. Also had p0011, and obviously was bank 1. Every time it runs rough and feels like it wants to stall until you take it out of gear an bring up the rpms. Best thing to do is just take it out and inspect the screen if the symptoms are the same in my opinion.
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 229
Likes: 7
From: SC
I should have my VCT solenoid changed out tomorrow. I get the P0022. It has issues when hot, at idle. Have to rev it up to get it to stop running rough and making noise.
I will post my results. I bought the seal for the valve cover where the solenoid is. I was thinking of trying to change it through the hole instead of popping off the cover. I want to check the timing chain on that side though. Not sure I will be able to see much through the VCT solenoid hole in the cover?
I will post my results. I bought the seal for the valve cover where the solenoid is. I was thinking of trying to change it through the hole instead of popping off the cover. I want to check the timing chain on that side though. Not sure I will be able to see much through the VCT solenoid hole in the cover?