I’ve posted this in other threads but notice all the Ford marketing photos of a Hybrid Limited towing a 27’ Airstream. Basically, from what I gather with your helpful insights, this means the driver is travelling alone in his truck and no cargo in the truck!

 

I corrected the above for you. Do NOT use the manufacturer's tongue weight. It's DRY, not loaded. No batteries, no propane tanks filled, no water, ... And of course, you haven't put your stuff in the trailer yet. Many people find they add 1,500 pounds of stuff.

That's why you use the GVWR, and take 13% of it. That's the way to keep you and your family safe, and know whether you can let your kids go from 60lbs to 120lbs and still camp with you.

In short, if you want a truck with all the frills, you need to upgrade to a heavier duty F250, or an F350. Or, get rid of the frills, and get an XLT with a higher payload.

And for those wanting the hybrid, batteries aren't weightless...

 

Sorry this got a bit long.....

Have you ever looked at the weight of an Airstream?

My guess is the truck was driver only, the truck and the camper were also filled with helium balloons.... Heck they even show one pulling it on the cover of their trailering guide. LOL

https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/d...owingGuide.pdf

Yeah I have seen the commercials. It is just the marketing department that must also be the guys that say it can tow 13,200#.

To be fair it isn't just Ford, all the truck companies do this and it is kind of sad. I mean who was it Toyota I think that was towing the Space Shuttle a few years back?

While I know that Payload is going to be one of your important numbers to watch. While not the only one it is the first one I look at as it is the easiest to see in a door jam and the quickest one you will see where you are at if you run the numbers on paper quickly with a calculator. However it is hard to really figure. Like in your example of ordering a Lariat with Hybrid being 1600. Maybe but I doubt it. There was a year or two where Lariat could get the HDPP but as far as I know it is XLT only for the last few years unless that changed with the new 2021, I haven't looked. The thing is that even between Lariats of the same model year the payload can differ from truck to truck sometimes quite a bit as there are so many things that go into the number.

Then I saw in the news just this week that Ford is recalling a bunch of F250s because a sticker wasn't properly addressing a number and people may inadvertently overload the truck. How much do you want to bet they are reprinting the payload stickers? Also keep in mind that anything added to the truck after it left the factory goes against payload. So don't forget about dealer installed options like maybe a bed cover.

This might help you understand the relationship between all of this. If you go back to that link above with the trailering guide. Scroll down to page 20. It shows the combined weight ratings (GCWR) on the left next to the engine options and axle ratio. These numbers don't take into account options so not comparing say a XLT to a Limited. So to do a bit of comparison trying to keep it apples to apples. Compare the 3.5EB to the 3.5Hybid. If looking at 4x4 you have to use the 3.73 ratio. The GCWR is close to 1000# more on the non hybrid. Granted this isn't a perfect comparison because the 3.5EB has the note #3 which is HDPP. To try and compare without HDPP you can't with 4WD as you would have to step down to 3.55 but it doesn't look like you can get that in a hybrid. However, comparing 2wd/max tow both without HDPP it still is 1000# difference on GCWR and 1300# in claimed towing capability. That is really interesting and partly what is going on. You have to keep in mind the engine is basically the same. While you can get a non-hybrid with the bigger fuel tank the hybrid has the electric motor between the transmission and engine plus batteries and other electronic bits to make it work. That might add close to 1000# of weight and explain it.

So if you are limited to 18,400 GCWR every option you add to the truck erodes this number. It is a give and take, when you get up into the Limited and Platinum trims the curb weight has crept up so much that there simply isn't much left in payload. That is how payload is calculated. You take the GCWR, subtract the weight of the truck with a full tank of gas and the left over is payload.

Now to throw something else into the mix. One thing I haven't seen a good answer on is what does SAE J2807 method mean. If you go back to that trailering guide on pg 20 or any of the others with the chart there is a note that they used the SAE J2807 method to calculate these figures. I have dug into this a bit and the intent is to come up with a standardized method for measuring towing guides between the brands so as a consumer you can better compare. I have seen this mentioned in Ford's towing guides going back to at least model year 2015 but it has been around longer than that. I haven't dug back into back issues of the trailering guide to see where it first popped up though. J2807 is a big long engineering type document that is sure to put you to sleep but the interesting thing is that they specify one thing in particular that might come into play. It states that when they do the testing that they are accounting for 150# Driver, 150# Passenger and a hitch (WD) that weighs 70#. So if the payload capacity sticker was also generated with SAE J2807 in mind as well, that could in theory mean you have a credit of 370# on the table that you can add to the payload number. That is substantial when you are talking tight payload numbers on highly trimmed trucks. Personally I don't account for it because I haven't seen cut and dry evidence on how it applies to payload numbers. The engineering document seriously put me to sleep a few times and it mainly talks about towing test detailed down to a specific section of road in AZ if I remember correctly. For me it is just a possible margin of safety that is likely there. I have spoken to a buddy that is a mechanical engineer and he laughs at me when I complain about payload numbers as he said there is a huge safety margin built into them as we sit around the campfire drinking another beer.

I only bring up SAE J2807 as it is something you can do your homework on to see if it is something you want to account for. Some people here will bring it up, it is a thing, others mostly ignore it and do the numbers the old way like I do. I will say that these trucks all have all kinds of power and it isn't a problem there. Also there are lots of people out there on the roads that completely ignore that payload number. It is you and your family in the vehicle. We can talk about this stuff till we are blue in the face or our fingers covered in blisters, people will still say they upgraded their brakes, added air bags or added one of those hula dancing girls on their dash so they can now tow it even if the stickers and guide say they can't.

 

Well in the case of the numbers I quoted, it does include batteries and propane but not water or cargo.

I understand calculating the 13% from base weight plus cargo is the best way to do it. I just don’t think I’d reach the max… but I get it.

 

to give you an idea mine TT: This is indeed the manufacturer's specs. 780#, 5995# at scale with batteries, propane and stock TW 1145# TT 7560# but I have HDPP with 2550#

 

I totally that real world numbers will differ from the manufacturer's. I was just pointing out that in the case of the trailer I'm looking at (Airstream), they always state weights with propane and batteries.

 

Interesting. I had read that before and I specifically asked the dealers I spoke to. They all said the payload number includes occupants and cargo but it would make sense that they assume at the very least that someone will be at wheel perhaps with one passenger and give you that buffer.

 

In my experience the dry tongue weight number differs from manufacturer to manufacturer if they include propane and batteries in the calculation or not. I just pretty much have gotten to the point where I ignore it because either way, the only time it ever might apply or be remotely close is the day you bring it home from the dealer when there was nothing in it. It is just easier to use GVWR of the camper for estimation reasons until you get it loaded as you are going to run it and have a chance to hit a CAT Scale to verify.

 

Kind of like the battery and propane thing, back in the day it used to differ by manufacturer. Some would give a credit for the driver and some didn't.

Like I said, I only mentioned this spec because they do call it out that the numbers are calculated using that method in the towing guide but I haven't really seen it spelled out on what it means in regards to payload specifically.

I do recall that I thought Ford was the brand that back in the day would give 150# for a driver. To be honest I have always been a GM guy and am new to Ford with this truck so back then I paid more attention to GM measurement scales.

I have a feeling with this new spec of 150# for a driver and 150# for a passenger when doing the tests as part of the SAE is a polite way of recognizing that the driver doing the test really weighs 300#. As for assuming there would be a driver, they do recognize that you will have a full tank of fuel. So that is where even two nearly identical trucks with different fuel tanks will differ in payload.

Also another interesting point on the SAE J2807, the standard does change a bit as you go between class trucks. For instance on a 1/2 ton it is 150, 150 and 70 for the hitch but for a 3/4 ton it is 150,150 and 100 for the hitch. So they might have 400# on the table.

As for the dealer, I am not too sure how much I would trust them. No matter if it is a sales person at Ford or the Camper place. They know more about financing options, addons and their commission than anything technical.

 

The Ford payload sticker on the truck doesn't include ANY people.