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2004 - 2008 Ford F150 General discussion on the 2004 - 2008 Ford F150 truck.

Timing off?

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Old Jul 22, 2017 | 11:17 PM
  #21  
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Take a deep breath - and grab a beer. Let's go over this slowly.


First, I have looked over and over your Freeze Frame data - backward and forward. Calm down, everything looks pretty good. (BTW thanks for grabbing Freeze Frame Data. It's a helpful thing many ignore).


Briefly:

Your DTC code /// presumed to be P0171 and NOT P1071/// occurred (freeze frame data was captured) at idle, 714.5 RPM, Zero vehicle speed, Engine Load 29.69 %, Spark advance 15.5º, throttle position 13º, and MAF flow 7 grams per second (normal for 700 rpm idle). ///Lets table the P2106 (IMRC runner) for now///.


It's a little HOT where you are at. Or sun had been beating down on the hood after your drive. Intake Air temperature is 136 degrees - which suggests to me that the DTC occurred shortly (42 seconds) after you started it up - after clearing DTCs - or at least Zero Km after clearing DTCs.

Barometric pressure where you are is 92 kpa (27.1676 inhg) (a little low pressure area, but no worries about a tornado just yet!)


Fuel rail pressure 284.005 Kpa (41.19 PSI) - Not way out of line - Mine generally runs right under 40 PSI


THE REASON FOR YOUR DTC is "Long Term Fuel Trim" Freeze Frame data shows it is TRUE there is indication of 'LEAN' condition. Bank 1 happened to 'trigger' first but Bank 2 is comming soon too. That is because Short Term Fuel trim (actually OK) plus "LONG TERM FUEL TRIM" is greater than 25% = lean.

But, Short Term Fuel trims are OK on BOTH banks. ALSO, there is NO indication that O2 sensor readings are out of parameters (.1v to .9v). The only reason that "I CAN THINK" of for Long Term Fuel Trims to be too high at IDLE, is from residual accumulation while the engine was trying to compensate for the Tone Ring being backwards.

My suggestion. Make sure all electrical plugs / connections are clean, plugged in correctly, seated good, and do a Battery disconnect complete Relearn process to clear PCM tables, and relearn everything, then repeat your test.
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Old Jul 23, 2017 | 03:15 AM
  #22  
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Here is what I did after my last post. Replaced fuel filter, replaced IMRC. I've disconnected the battery while I was pulling the intake out and installing it again, I also checked all of the wiring behind the intake and everything seems to be OK.
After she was all in one piece, I started the engine and let it idle for about 10 minutes, then I went for a drive. She was pulling OK when I was lite on the throttle and wile engine was still cool, when the engine warmed up, it was the same thing, lost of power, shaking like crazy. I did noticed that when I step on it, it fills like it wanted to go but something was holding it back and sometimes just start pulling for a second and then again, power is gone.

I'm gonna try replacing the coils first, and if that doesn't help, I'll try to replace injectors. I'm thinking that when I disconnected the fuel line, some dirt might got in to the rail and plugged the injectors.

Now, I'm thinking that P2006 might be causing the P0171 and P0174
Link to new Freezy frame.
Here is what the scanner looks like at the moment:



Behind the intake:


Last edited by igorek25; Jul 23, 2017 at 03:22 AM.
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Old Jul 23, 2017 | 06:48 AM
  #23  
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Default I'm thinking a vacuum leak /intake

Yes, I would also question injectors . But a visual smoke test done with a homemade you tube cheape may turn up a leak .
The alcohol in the fuel eats some plastic and rubber . This includes purge valve, gas cap, fuel tank gaskets etc . But I tend to fixate on this test just because it worked for me twice . Just like an ex smoker harps on about quitting --that would be me too.
I have never fought my intake runner but I guess one day It will break . I know when I was pricing out jasper engines I specified a new plastic intake manifold as part of the deal .
I was also aware that wires and hoses back there jam runner sometimes .
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Old Jul 23, 2017 | 12:04 PM
  #24  
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From your linked freeze frame data, again everything looks pretty normal to me for accelerating smartly (74% TP) from 1371 RPM @43 mph - (except long term fuel trims). 74% absolute TP resulting in 98% Commanded TP and 97% Engine Load is NOT really abnormal. That's about what my truck would be indicating. MAF, Spark Advance 0º with 74% absolute TP, ECT of 194º, FRP of 40.6 psi, all looks quiet normal for the conditions /// I Notice it was nice and cool out last night, IAT 77 degrees! I'm jellous, here its still 90 degrees late in the evening! lol ///


There again LTFT1 (25.78%) + STFT1 (3.13%) is > 25% and what caused the P0171.


Based on what I see, I can't support replacing COPs without ANY misfire DTCs. It would be interesting to see MODE 06 data, particularly the misfire count for each cylinder for the last 10 drive cycles - to see if a misfire rate less than the DTC threshold could be the problem. Can your reader read Mode 06 test data? Another parameter that could be live monitored would be MFTOT, (Post 1000 Revolutions Misfire count for all cylinders in current drive cycle -- PID # 1616. Unless those indicated, I would not replace COPS.


As for injectors - ??? I'm not ready to condemn them yet but wouldn't scoff at running injector cleaner through it. While it is true one 'under delivering' for conditions WILL result in elevated fuel trims ---- you would have to have (probably no more than one) on both banks partially plugged. Three good ones running +25% will compensate for ONE completely plugged up - BUT you would have misfires on that cylinder under that scenario. As suggested by @redfishtd, a Crack in plastic molded IM or a leak in a common vacuum line (those difficult ones at the rear bottom) would effect both banks about the same. A leak in a Valve Cover gasket, Front cover gasket, or 'o'ring on a CPS or CKP sensor, or oil filler cap will allow 'unmetered' air into the IM via PVC system.


Finally - HOW many miles to the O2 sensors have on them. I am a believer in replacing them 'preventatively' every 100,000 miles. They 'drift' out of calibration with age and exhaust contaminates collecting on them. And their 'drift' is in the direction of 'LEAN' and 'LAZY' or slow reacting.


ALSO - (no scolding intended), but I do note you said you let it "idle" for 10 minutes. That is not a proper "ReLearn" process. The fuel trim table is multi-dimensional based on engine RPM, LOAD, and god knows whatever else. Relearn involves parking brake, A/C switch, 2500 rpm no load for one minute, in drive load for some time, accel from 40-60, decel a couple of times, etc etc etc. It should be performed after ANY 'major' changes.
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Old Jul 23, 2017 | 05:28 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by redfishtd
Yes, I would also question injectors . But a visual smoke test done with a homemade you tube cheape may turn up a leak . .
After my post last knight, a I was laing in bad (tossing and turning) I tough, why don't I use a cigar or a cigarette to do the smoke test and then you replayed suggesting just that. I don't know why I didn't think about this earlier. lol
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Old Jul 23, 2017 | 06:05 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by F150Torqued
I'm jellous, here its still 90 degrees late in the evening! lol ///
I live in southern California, and thats why we pay hefty real estate prices. The climate is the best in the country if not the world. It was about 90-95 during the day (dry air) and went down to lover 70s at knight and we get that cool breeze from the ocean.


Originally Posted by F150Torqued
Based on what I see, I can't support replacing COPs without ANY misfire DTCs. It would be interesting to see MODE 06 data, particularly the misfire count for each cylinder for the last 10 drive cycles - to see if a misfire rate less than the DTC threshold could be the problem. Can your reader read Mode 06 test data? Another parameter that could be live monitored would be MFTOT, (Post 1000 Revolutions Misfire count for all cylinders in current drive cycle -- PID # 1616. Unless those indicated, I would not replace COPS.
That's the problem, according to my scan tool, there isn't a single misfire but it's defiantly fills like it misfiring.

Originally Posted by F150Torqued
As for injectors - ??? I'm not ready to condemn them yet but wouldn't scoff at running injector cleaner through it. While it is true one 'under delivering' for conditions WILL result in elevated fuel trims ---- you would have to have (probably no more than one) on both banks partially plugged. Three good ones running +25% will compensate for ONE completely plugged up - BUT you would have misfires on that cylinder under that scenario. As suggested by @redfishtd, a Crack in plastic molded IM or a leak in a common vacuum line (those difficult ones at the rear bottom) would effect both banks about the same. A leak in a Valve Cover gasket, Front cover gasket, or 'o'ring on a CPS or CKP sensor, or oil filler cap will allow 'unmetered' air into the IM via PVC system.
I'm going to live the injectors replacement as a last resort. By looking at the gaskets, it appears that ether just a gaskets or all of the injectors were replaced

Originally Posted by F150Torqued
Finally - HOW many miles to the O2 sensors have on them. I am a believer in replacing them 'preventatively' every 100,000 miles. They 'drift' out of calibration with age and exhaust contaminates collecting on them. And their 'drift' is in the direction of 'LEAN' and 'LAZY' or slow reacting.
one of the sensors was replaced about 4k miles ago and the other looked like it was replaced not to long ago by the previous owner (I can tel by the ranch marks on it ). One thing I know for sure, by looking at the data, It wouldn't make it run as it does at the moment.

Originally Posted by F150Torqued
ALSO - (no scolding intended), but I do note you said you let it "idle" for 10 minutes. That is not a proper "ReLearn" process. The fuel trim table is multi-dimensional based on engine RPM, LOAD, and god knows whatever else. Relearn involves parking brake, A/C switch, 2500 rpm no load for one minute, in drive load for some time, accel from 40-60, decel a couple of times, etc etc etc. It should be performed after ANY 'major' changes.
Even if I didn't tried to relearn it, I believe it would still run somewhat normal and wouldn't have that much power loss, I think. When I did the timing job the first time, battery was disconnected for a week. When I started the truck, I didn't even attempted to relearn and it was running just fine.

One more thing that I can't get my head around is the P2006 code. I've replaced the module, checked the wiring, tried to slightly open it by hand ( while its installed), all rods are installed properly. The only thing I haven't checked, is the fuses.

I will do the smoke test on Monday and I'll keep you posted.
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Old Jul 24, 2017 | 12:38 AM
  #27  
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The P2006 code is a little mysterious to me also. Mainly because I've replaced my IMRC and IM gaskets - and with Bank1 & Bank2 runners linked together with rigid linkage - I see no way just one side can be 'stuck closed'. The PCM must be making that determination based on some other factors and I can not determine WHAT factors might be used to determine that on ONE bank.


I do not know anything about your scanner, though I looked it up online and it seems very expensive and very capable. Can you read specified PIDs? I have located, isolated, and tested two 'KEY' OBDII Pids dealing with the IMRC system. I have created live data monitoring screen for both in Torque Pro and have monitored them both extensively while watching the damn thing with a bore scope stuck back there. And mis-information abounds about how it works.


The IMRC does NOT operate proportionately. It is either WIDE OPEN, or COMPLETELY CLOSED. The PCM commands it OPEN and indicates that by a flag bit set in PID # 1103, bit 4. On=Open, Off=Closed. However what is interesting, the IMRC actuator DOES provide analogue positioning feedback to the PCM from zero degrees to 90 degrees (Or zero to 100%). That analogue position signal can be observed on OBDII PID # 1634, two bytes. Occasionally my gauges will catch it opening or closing and display a percentage, but generally it is just slams to zero or 100 percent. (And I have watched it with a bore scope while monitoring these two PIDs). The formula in Torque Pro is bizarre and likely not much help. But if you want it, I'll provide it to you.


The mis-information about it opening above 2500-3000 RPM is BS. (You cannot get it to open sitting still & revving it). It can open as early as 1750 RPM and as late as 3500 depending on speed & operational circumstances. It clearly works different when IAT is cold (below 35º). It opens depending on _speed_, engine load, RPM and MAF and power demand. When I am monitoring it, if you pay attention - you can DEFINATELY feel an additional power surge when the IMRC opens.


But I can't see how it could play a role in 'running rough', misfires, or your other symptoms outside the DTC or lack of POWER development.
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Old Jul 24, 2017 | 01:28 PM
  #28  
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I fixed the P2006. The problem was that the vacuum line that goes to the brake booster was on the way and it was restricting it to open all the way. I think that the P2006 was causing other codes to not show up, kind of masking the misfire problem. She is running way better now at higher RPMs but still, misfire is still present.

Now that the P2006 is out of the way, I get a list of codes (somehow I forgot to save the freezy frame) P0171, P0301, P0316, P0353, P1000, P0171, P0301, P0316, P0353. I tried to swap coils and that didn't help. I'm gonna try to swap crank sensor and #1 and #3 injectors tonight and see if it helps.

My scanner is Autel MaxiSys Pro, I can look at PIDs but it doesn't tell me the number just a description. I has waaay to much information then my little brain can process. LOL

Here is what I've done so far:
Smoke test - looked pretty good
New fuel filter
Swapped coils ( I have 8 extra coils)
Checked wiring
New spark plugs (replaced even befor engine was in)
Here is my next steps:
Replace injectors Cyl #1 and Cyl #3
Replace Crank positioning sensor ( I have a known good one from my old engine)
Check the pulse on the coil wire
if that doesn't help, buy a compression test tool and test the compression.


So, what do you guys think, any suggestions or tips?
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Old Jul 25, 2017 | 09:23 AM
  #29  
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Default Be aware there are more than few complaints of new failed spark plugs

New out of the box failures . Don't know if they are breaking due to carbon in head ,rough installation or just a production problem . It stopped me from going back to MC I'm still running my third set of champions until I get a handle on it .
Just don't rule them out because they are new . One guy had two new ones failed .
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Old Jul 25, 2017 | 12:09 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by redfishtd
New out of the box failures . Don't know if they are breaking due to carbon in head ,rough installation or just a production problem . It stopped me from going back to MC I'm still running my third set of champions until I get a handle on it .
Just don't rule them out because they are new . One guy had two new ones failed .
That's exactly what it was!
I got home after work yesterday, started the truck, unplugged the first cyl coil, nothing happened, pulled it out, put my old spark plag from the old engine in to the coil and rested on the block for the ground, I get a good spark. I then replaced the "new" plug with the old one and whola, it works!
So I clear all of the codes and go for a test drive while keeping an aye on the scanner, new code puped up, bank one is too lean. I when home, replaced all of them with my old ones go for a drive and I can defiantly feel the torque. Problem solved!

I was like WTF Motorcraft?!?!?! I paid premium price for a pile of poop, and I cant even take it back, since I got it back in May from Amazon!

Any way, I got her back on the road and thats all that's meters.
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