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Does payload cloud more than it reveals?

 
Old 11-10-2018, 02:02 PM
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Default Does payload cloud more than it reveals?

Hi All,

I am wondering if we would be safer if we as a community talked more about GVWR instead of payload when considering what we can tow. Payload is moderately useful if understood correctly, but ti only applies to trucks that have not been modified at all from the way they left the factory.

-kehyler
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Old 11-10-2018, 03:49 PM
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I believe it is the simplest to understand.

If you modify the truck, simply subtract the weight of the mods or weigh the truck.
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Old 11-10-2018, 04:21 PM
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I guess I'm not sure why it is simpler than "don't go above your GVWR." My main concern is that many people don't know the weight of the mods, or sometimes don't even know what came with the truck etc. If we just talked about GVWR, then it would bring more people to the CAT scale and get their real answer, which in my opinion seems justifiable for a safety issue.
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Old 11-10-2018, 04:50 PM
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I'm still waiting for someone to show me the laws making it illegal to modify a vehicle to exceed its as manufactured rating. If I'm not allowed to make a mod and exceed as manufactured weight rating, exactly where do I stand for weight ratings on the car I built myself? How much can I load or tow with it before I'm a law breaker?

Of course I don't count any law out of California.
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Old 11-10-2018, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by kehyler View Post
. Payload is moderately useful if understood correctly, but ti only applies to trucks that have not been modified at all from the way they left the factory.
True, if by "payload" you mean the payload capacity per the door sticker. But anyone that uses that number was standing behind the door when they passed out the brains. Actual payload capacity is GVWR minus the weight of the tow vehicle. The payload capacity per the door sticker is GVWR minus the weight of the new tow vehicle when it exited the "factory" assembly line.

Gross payload capacity is not useful for anyone. What's useful is payload capacity available for adding weight to the tow vehicle, or what I call payload capacity available for hitch weight. You won't find that number anywhere on the internet, in Ford specs, nor anywhere else. The only way to get it is to load the tow vehicle with everybody and everything that will be in it when towing, fill up with fuel, then weigh the wet and loaded tow vehicle. Subtract the weight of the wet and loaded tow vehicle from the GVWR of the tow vehicle and the answer is the payload capacity available for hitch weight. (Note that "hitch weight" includes the weight of the installed hitch for WD, 5er, or gooseneck, as well as the tongue weight/pin weight/gooseneck weight of the trailer.

Similar problem with GCWR and tow rating. (NOTE change subject from GVWR above to GCWR here. Not the sane thing!)

Tow rating is GCWR minus the weight of the tow vehicle. The tow vehicle has no options not required to reach the GCWR, and no payload other than a 150-pound driver, So tow ratings are overstated, because nobody tows a trailer with a tow vehicle that has no options and with nothing in the tow vehicle but a skinny driver.

So whether you want to know the max hitch weight you can have without exceeding the payload capacity, or the max gross trailer weight you can have without exceeding the tow rating, you have to weigh the tow vehicle and do some junior-high--school math. Assume 13% tongue weight of a TT, 20% pin weight of a 5er or gooseneck trailer.

But caveat! Tow rating (used to estimate max gross trailer weight) is rarely the limiter as to how heavy a trailer you can tow without being overloaded. Hitch weight (payload capacity) is almost always the limiter. But tongue weight limits of your receiver hitch may be the limiter, or rear gross axle weight rating (rGAWR) may be the limiter. So you must check it all.
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Old 11-10-2018, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by smokeywren View Post
(NOTE change subject from GVWR above to GCWR here. Not the sane thing!)
Typo, or Freudian slip?

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Old 11-10-2018, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mikeinatlanta View Post
I'm still waiting for someone to show me the laws making it illegal to modify a vehicle to exceed its as manufactured rating. If I'm not allowed to make a mod and exceed as manufactured weight rating, exactly where do I stand for weight ratings on the car I built myself? How much can I load or tow with it before I'm a law breaker?

Of course I don't count any law out of California.
Only in Civil court will exceeding GVWR actually come into play. So try not to maim or kill anyone when driving over the trucks GVWR.
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Old 11-10-2018, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by acdii View Post
Only in Civil court will exceeding GVWR actually come into play. So try not to maim or kill anyone when driving over the trucks GVWR.
So dramatic. You must have some excess estrogen this evening. So how do I rate the car I building again?

So a guy buys an XLT with a 2.7 motor. He has an accident and bends the frame. He goes ahead and forks out for a HDPP frame. Already having the same brakes and trans, he goes ahead and upgrades his rear diff, springs and shocks to the HDPP parts. So now he has all the heaviest duty parts and his only shortcoming is power, so he goes ahead and buys a 5star tune. Now he has absolutely everything on the truck upgraded but the little yellow sticker. According to the tow ***** around here he's off to jail if he tows with payload or GCWR over his little sticker. Sure, I'm buying that. Of course I'm not buying it because any of you yahoos have a clue, I'm buying it because not doing so will result in incessant badgering from the forum tow *****.

Last edited by mikeinatlanta; 11-10-2018 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 11-11-2018, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeinatlanta View Post
So dramatic. You must have some excess estrogen this evening. So how do I rate the car I building again?

So a guy buys an XLT with a 2.7 motor. He has an accident and bends the frame. He goes ahead and forks out for a HDPP frame. Already having the same brakes and trans, he goes ahead and upgrades his rear diff, springs and shocks to the HDPP parts. So now he has all the heaviest duty parts and his only shortcoming is power, so he goes ahead and buys a 5star tune. Now he has absolutely everything on the truck upgraded but the little yellow sticker. According to the tow ***** around here he's off to jail if he tows with payload or GCWR over his little sticker. Sure, I'm buying that. Of course I'm not buying it because any of you yahoos have a clue, I'm buying it because not doing so will result in incessant badgering from the forum tow *****.
Wow...a drama queen, talk about estrogen. Said person does have the ability to take the truck and have it re certified per the regs and guidelines of the appropriate agency, thereby being in compliance. The tow "*****" ( I hate that expression, especially in these times) aren't advocating hauling anyone off to jail. What they try to impress is the safety implied by adhering to a vehicle's ratings.
You have a right to modify your vehicle as you see fit. You also have a RESPONSIBILITY to ensure what you do with the vehicle does not compromise the safety of others.
Honestly though, if you need a bigger truck, get one! If it all really bothers you that much stay away.

Last edited by Wicked ace; 11-11-2018 at 05:54 AM.
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Old 11-11-2018, 08:49 AM
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It's simple, what ever that registration says in NJ is the final word. If you rebuild a total wreck and beef it up. It's still going to be the same same as before on the registration.
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