Phaser Lockout Kit
05-04-2016, 10:21 AM
#11
F150 Forum
Hello all;
Just wanted to chime in.
With regards to reliability, here's a little explanation as to why the VCT system is utilized in the 3 valve engines.
Generally, when VCT works and doesn't rattle the phasers to death, the engine runs fully advanced and retards when a lean mixture is detected in order to cut emissions and prevent spark knock. It does this by retarding the camshaft, in turn holding open the exhaust valves for a microsecond, allowing exhaust gases to mix with incoming intake air. This allows Ford to use this system instead of utilizing an EGR system.
First of all the lockout kit we offer is the only one on the market that is 50 State CARB approved (CARB E.O. Nos D-752) including in the wonderful State of California. All of the other companies offering the kit can't match that, not all of the tuners are created equal. We have worked on development for this solution for several years including emissions testing. The tuner is required in order to pass emissions and stop potential detonation issues.
Reading JP3's thread, after installing the lockouts, the engine went into limp mode and rightly so, the ECM is detecting that the camshaft is not being allowed to retard and triggers DTC codes for an over advanced camshaft condition.
The thread assumes now that the truck doesn't go into limp mode, that the ECM has magically learned not to activate the phasers anymore, this is NOT the case, I can assure you the ECM is still attempting to move the phaser in order to retard the camshaft when a lean condition is detected and the lockouts are preventing that. The ECM doesn't trigger a light and afterwards decides that you don't really want VCT after all.
Us at Livernois highly recommend that you program the vehicle to tell the ECM what you've done, we're not saying that to get more money out of you. The tuner eliminates VCT solenoid activation, communicates that the phaser is now a fixed sprocket and remaps the fuel system so that a lean condition cannot occur. It's not used simply to prevent DTCs.
The programming function of the tuner when plugged into the vehicle, will extract the files that are currently on the ECM, patch them for the addition of the lockout kit and then reload the patched files back onto the ECM. This means that any performance tunes from any company that are on the ECM will be fully compatible with the lockout programming.
I don't know about you all, but the thought of engine components connected to the engine's timing chain fighting a modification makes me a little uneasy.
Just wanted to chime in.
With regards to reliability, here's a little explanation as to why the VCT system is utilized in the 3 valve engines.
Generally, when VCT works and doesn't rattle the phasers to death, the engine runs fully advanced and retards when a lean mixture is detected in order to cut emissions and prevent spark knock. It does this by retarding the camshaft, in turn holding open the exhaust valves for a microsecond, allowing exhaust gases to mix with incoming intake air. This allows Ford to use this system instead of utilizing an EGR system.
First of all the lockout kit we offer is the only one on the market that is 50 State CARB approved (CARB E.O. Nos D-752) including in the wonderful State of California. All of the other companies offering the kit can't match that, not all of the tuners are created equal. We have worked on development for this solution for several years including emissions testing. The tuner is required in order to pass emissions and stop potential detonation issues.
Reading JP3's thread, after installing the lockouts, the engine went into limp mode and rightly so, the ECM is detecting that the camshaft is not being allowed to retard and triggers DTC codes for an over advanced camshaft condition.
The thread assumes now that the truck doesn't go into limp mode, that the ECM has magically learned not to activate the phasers anymore, this is NOT the case, I can assure you the ECM is still attempting to move the phaser in order to retard the camshaft when a lean condition is detected and the lockouts are preventing that. The ECM doesn't trigger a light and afterwards decides that you don't really want VCT after all.
Us at Livernois highly recommend that you program the vehicle to tell the ECM what you've done, we're not saying that to get more money out of you. The tuner eliminates VCT solenoid activation, communicates that the phaser is now a fixed sprocket and remaps the fuel system so that a lean condition cannot occur. It's not used simply to prevent DTCs.
The programming function of the tuner when plugged into the vehicle, will extract the files that are currently on the ECM, patch them for the addition of the lockout kit and then reload the patched files back onto the ECM. This means that any performance tunes from any company that are on the ECM will be fully compatible with the lockout programming.
I don't know about you all, but the thought of engine components connected to the engine's timing chain fighting a modification makes me a little uneasy.
Last edited by Livernois Motorsports; 05-05-2016 at 10:28 AM.
The following users liked this post:
650NutKase (05-04-2016)
05-04-2016, 02:38 PM
#14
Super Duper Senior Member
Hello all;
Just wanted to chime in.
With regards to reliability, here's a little explanation as to why the VCT system is utilized in the 3 valve engines.
Generally, when VCT works and doesn't rattle the phasers to death, the engine runs fully advanced and retards when a lean mixture is detected in order to cut emissions and prevent spark knock. It does this by retarding the camshaft, in turn holding open the exhaust valves for a microsecond, allowing exhaust gases to mix with incoming intake air. This allows Ford to use this system instead of utilizing an EGR system.
First of all the lockout kit we offer is the only one on the market that is 50 State CARB approved. The tuner is required in order to pass emissions and stop potential detonation issues.
Reading JP3's thread, after installing the lockouts, the engine went into limp mode and rightly so, the ECM is detecting that the camshaft is not being allowed to retard and triggers DTC codes for an over advanced camshaft condition.
The thread assumes now that the truck doesn't go into limp mode, that the ECM has magically learned not to activate the phasers anymore, this is NOT the case, I can assure you the ECM is still attempting to move the phaser in order to retard the camshaft when a lean condition is detected and the lockouts are preventing that. The ECM doesn't trigger a light and afterwards decides that you don't really want VCT after all.
Us at Livernois and other vendors who now offer the kit will highly recommend that you program the vehicle to tell the ECM what you've done, we're not saying that to get more money out of you. The tuner eliminates VCT solenoid activation, communicates that the phaser is now a fixed sprocket and remaps the fuel system so that a lean condition cannot occur. It's not used simply to prevent DTCs.
I don't know about you all, but the thought of engine components connected to the engine's timing chain fighting a modification makes me a little uneasy.
Just wanted to chime in.
With regards to reliability, here's a little explanation as to why the VCT system is utilized in the 3 valve engines.
Generally, when VCT works and doesn't rattle the phasers to death, the engine runs fully advanced and retards when a lean mixture is detected in order to cut emissions and prevent spark knock. It does this by retarding the camshaft, in turn holding open the exhaust valves for a microsecond, allowing exhaust gases to mix with incoming intake air. This allows Ford to use this system instead of utilizing an EGR system.
First of all the lockout kit we offer is the only one on the market that is 50 State CARB approved. The tuner is required in order to pass emissions and stop potential detonation issues.
Reading JP3's thread, after installing the lockouts, the engine went into limp mode and rightly so, the ECM is detecting that the camshaft is not being allowed to retard and triggers DTC codes for an over advanced camshaft condition.
The thread assumes now that the truck doesn't go into limp mode, that the ECM has magically learned not to activate the phasers anymore, this is NOT the case, I can assure you the ECM is still attempting to move the phaser in order to retard the camshaft when a lean condition is detected and the lockouts are preventing that. The ECM doesn't trigger a light and afterwards decides that you don't really want VCT after all.
Us at Livernois and other vendors who now offer the kit will highly recommend that you program the vehicle to tell the ECM what you've done, we're not saying that to get more money out of you. The tuner eliminates VCT solenoid activation, communicates that the phaser is now a fixed sprocket and remaps the fuel system so that a lean condition cannot occur. It's not used simply to prevent DTCs.
I don't know about you all, but the thought of engine components connected to the engine's timing chain fighting a modification makes me a little uneasy.
05-04-2016, 03:07 PM
#15
F150 Forum
The kit for $699.99 includes the programmer that will transfer all of the files that are on the ECU, make the 250 plus parameter changes and transfer back the files for the lockouts.
The programmer is not compatible with performance tuning as the software is totally different.
The programmer is not compatible with performance tuning as the software is totally different.
05-04-2016, 03:25 PM
#16
"JP3" here. lol Thanks for chiming in.
"Magically" haha, I wish. Not being totally familiar yet with what codes trigger what with this PCM, I thought that once the cam over advanced codes were set, the PCM would disable the VCT function. I have not logged the VCT angles to see if that was true, and since that initial post, I have gone ahead and unplugged both VCT solenoid's. According to what I've read, this *should* set a fault and the PCM should disable all VCT functions. I cannot log VCTA or VCTENA at the moment, but I believe this to be the case as the VCTSYS PID remains in open loop 100% of the time.
Really and truly, being a car guy, I skipped the tune aspect as an experiment to see what the result would be. I'm not opposed to it in the least and for the person who cant stand to see a lit CEL or needs it off for inspection or emissions testing it is definitely the way to go. These are not issues where I live. Like I said in the original thread, your mileage may vary.
Truth be told, my ultimate plan is to either take it to a fantastic local tuning shop I trust or purchase HP Tuners (or similar tuning program) to deal with the VCT system, the CMCV system, and to improve shift points, ignition timing and just make it a little more responsive to throttle input. I have read a great deal about Ford electronic throttle control in the last few days. Interesting stuff.
Overall, the truck really appears to run no different than it did before the lockouts most of the time (see below). It actually seems a little more peppy in the lower rpms, likely because there is no camshaft retard at all. Not certain about fuel mileage as I rarely have the need to check it.
Can it be improved? Certainly. Overall though I am happy with it (that's really all that matters) and am sure it would run for many years as is.
I will be upfront and say that since the weather has warmed up, it has a tip-in bog where the PCM flings the TB open to 82° (regardless of accelerator pedal position), retards timing a ton and then recovers. This only happens when the engine is warm and is possibly related to high IAT's. When it is 'cold' everything behaves (timing advances, throttle body mimics accelerator input, etc.) as it should and it runs really really good. I will note that this PCM reports being in closed loop dang near all the time, even at cold start up. CylHdTemp is 95+ degrees even on a cold morning start-up. However, I'm not sure the bog to be related to the lockout install since the internet is flooded with stories of bogging, hesitating 5.4L's. Maybe it is, but sadly, there does not seem to be a consensus anywhere as to the cause or solution for any of the bog problems. Some throw parts at it and claim some fixes work and others claim they do not.
As always I am open to input. I am having a blast fiddling with this thing and learning about the more modern Ford efi systems.
"Magically" haha, I wish. Not being totally familiar yet with what codes trigger what with this PCM, I thought that once the cam over advanced codes were set, the PCM would disable the VCT function. I have not logged the VCT angles to see if that was true, and since that initial post, I have gone ahead and unplugged both VCT solenoid's. According to what I've read, this *should* set a fault and the PCM should disable all VCT functions. I cannot log VCTA or VCTENA at the moment, but I believe this to be the case as the VCTSYS PID remains in open loop 100% of the time.
Really and truly, being a car guy, I skipped the tune aspect as an experiment to see what the result would be. I'm not opposed to it in the least and for the person who cant stand to see a lit CEL or needs it off for inspection or emissions testing it is definitely the way to go. These are not issues where I live. Like I said in the original thread, your mileage may vary.
Truth be told, my ultimate plan is to either take it to a fantastic local tuning shop I trust or purchase HP Tuners (or similar tuning program) to deal with the VCT system, the CMCV system, and to improve shift points, ignition timing and just make it a little more responsive to throttle input. I have read a great deal about Ford electronic throttle control in the last few days. Interesting stuff.
Overall, the truck really appears to run no different than it did before the lockouts most of the time (see below). It actually seems a little more peppy in the lower rpms, likely because there is no camshaft retard at all. Not certain about fuel mileage as I rarely have the need to check it.
Can it be improved? Certainly. Overall though I am happy with it (that's really all that matters) and am sure it would run for many years as is.
I will be upfront and say that since the weather has warmed up, it has a tip-in bog where the PCM flings the TB open to 82° (regardless of accelerator pedal position), retards timing a ton and then recovers. This only happens when the engine is warm and is possibly related to high IAT's. When it is 'cold' everything behaves (timing advances, throttle body mimics accelerator input, etc.) as it should and it runs really really good. I will note that this PCM reports being in closed loop dang near all the time, even at cold start up. CylHdTemp is 95+ degrees even on a cold morning start-up. However, I'm not sure the bog to be related to the lockout install since the internet is flooded with stories of bogging, hesitating 5.4L's. Maybe it is, but sadly, there does not seem to be a consensus anywhere as to the cause or solution for any of the bog problems. Some throw parts at it and claim some fixes work and others claim they do not.
As always I am open to input. I am having a blast fiddling with this thing and learning about the more modern Ford efi systems.
Last edited by BigBlockRanger; 05-04-2016 at 03:39 PM.
05-04-2016, 05:41 PM
#17
LightningRod
minor corrections
Hello all;
Just wanted to chime in.
With regards to reliability, here's a little explanation as to why the VCT system is utilized in the 3 valve engines.
Generally, when VCT works and doesn't rattle the phasers to death, the engine runs fully advanced and retards when a lean mixture is detected in order to cut emissions and prevent spark knock. It does this by retarding the camshaft, in turn holding open the exhaust valves for a microsecond, allowing exhaust gases to mix with incoming intake air. This allows Ford to use this system instead of utilizing an EGR system.
...
...
...
Just wanted to chime in.
With regards to reliability, here's a little explanation as to why the VCT system is utilized in the 3 valve engines.
Generally, when VCT works and doesn't rattle the phasers to death, the engine runs fully advanced and retards when a lean mixture is detected in order to cut emissions and prevent spark knock. It does this by retarding the camshaft, in turn holding open the exhaust valves for a microsecond, allowing exhaust gases to mix with incoming intake air. This allows Ford to use this system instead of utilizing an EGR system.
...
...
...
o-First, the Triton 3v engines do not run fully advanced ... until a lean mixture is detected. In fact, under a very large percentage of operating conditions, the engine is applying some degree (often a lot) of cam retard. Up to 60-65 'crankshaft degrees' - not mere microseconds. This can be verified by monitoring OBDII data with a live data scanner on three custom PID's (RCAM - PID# 16CD - Requested Cam Retard, in crankshaft degrees) (CAMERRR - PID# 16CE -Cam error, in crankshaft degrees) & (CAMDCR - PID# 16CF - Cam Duty Cycle Request to solenoids, in percent duty cycle)
o-Secondly, the Locking PIN in an "OEM" phaser, locks the phasers slightly shy its full advance - not at FULL advance. See the photo and analysis posted here: https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...1/#post4516452 . Note in that photo the position of the phaser vane when the locking pin is ligned up with its locking position. This unique design {apparrently} allows for the engine to idle at zero degrees and when oil pressure increases above the threshold to overcome the locking pin spring, {approx 800-1000 RPM's}, allows the phaser to advance cams to positive advance {although I do not know how much}. Livernois SHOULD know the exact degrees cam advance their product forces the cams into, so perhaps they would answer that technical question I posted at: https://www.f150forum.com/f12/5-4l-p...8/#post4160750 . After nearly 700 reads it remains unanswered.
o-Thirdly, the PCM's reaction to a lean condition is increase in short term fuel trim, not retard cams. True, a lean condition can result in labor knock, but recirculating exhaust gases (by retarding cams) would exacerbate that. PCM's Reaction to spark knock is to retard ignition timing. Retard is applied to cams in response to engine load at lower RPMs and higher relative throttle position (and probably several other factors) to regirgutate exhaust gases (EGR effect as you correctly mention) when possible to improve emissions, but also to improve natural aspiration and torque at lower to medium RPMs. Cam retard, when possible, reduces compression ratio and thus cool combustion temperatures and to reduce load on CATs. Cams are advanced during mid to higher RPM and load/throttle conditions for improved power curve at higher RPMs.
o-Fourth, only correction to fuel tables that will fix a lean condition is increase fuel delivery - almost certainly resulting in increased fuel consumption and combustion temperatures with cams fully advanced.
o- finally, there are numerous parts involved in the VCT system that can cause noise (rattle). Lockouts address only one of those, and are not a cure or fix for any other, such as failing tensioners, or fully extended tensioners resulting from stretched or worn timing chains, or broken chain guides or impared oil flow.
.
.
PS. @BigBlockRanger
VCTA is at #16B1, bit 6. VCT Control Circuit Monitor, -- ON/OFF Torque formula {A:6} and use an ON/OFF gauge.
VCTENA is #16B1, bit 5. Conditions correct to enable VCT, -- On/Off Torque formula {A:5} and use on/off gauge.
EDIT: ---- A forum member kindly pointed out my paragraph 3 above is not clear about the effect advance / retard has on torque. Advance improves torque - Retard improves high end power.
"Retard is applied to cams in response to engine load at lower RPMs and any increase in relative throttle position (and probably several other factors) to regurgitate exhaust gases (EGR effect as you correctly mention) when possible and to improve emissions, but also to improve natural aspiration and fuel efficiency at lower to medium RPMs. Cam retard, when possible, reduces compression ratio and thus cools combustion temperatures and reduces load on CATs. Cams are advanced only at IDLE, in response to heavy load/throttle conditions at low to upper mid-range RPMs for improved low end torque, and retarded slightly at high end RPMs to extend power curve. ALL other driving conditions employs some degree of retard."
Last edited by F150Torqued; 05-09-2016 at 04:55 PM. Reason: Clarify wording for effect of Advance/Retard
The following 2 users liked this post by F150Torqued:
06_F150 (08-09-2016),
BigBlockRanger (05-04-2016)
05-11-2016, 09:46 PM
#19
Just a little update - After quite a bit of research and datalogging, the warm weather bog I was having was 100% related to the P2006 (IMRC stuck closed) code that was lurking in my PCM and was NOT related to running lockouts with no tune. Just thought I'd add that.
08-09-2016, 06:51 PM
#20
[QUOTE=o- finally, there are numerous parts involved in the VCT system that can cause noise (rattle). Lockouts address only one of those, and are not a cure or fix for any other, such as failing tensioners, or fully extended tensioners resulting from stretched or worn timing chains, or broken chain guides or impared oil flow.."[/QUOTE]
I have always enjoyed reading your posts.
The above quoted is true, however, only in a preexisting condition as far as the chains and guides go.
Once the lockouts have been installed, there is no more chain slap conditions to break the guides, or cause the chain to rub the timing cover, ect.
The tensioners seals leaking will continue to happen, and I cannot stress enough that people quit using the plastic ones and go to the Pre-2000 metal tensioners that did not have the seal leaking issues. Most are aware of the fact that they will work, even though claims are that they will not.
Obviously tensioner seals leaking can cause issues on the top end after the lockouts, as you will starve the cam followers, ect, resulting in a top end rebuild or selling to one of us to fix it :P
Mike
I have always enjoyed reading your posts.
The above quoted is true, however, only in a preexisting condition as far as the chains and guides go.
Once the lockouts have been installed, there is no more chain slap conditions to break the guides, or cause the chain to rub the timing cover, ect.
The tensioners seals leaking will continue to happen, and I cannot stress enough that people quit using the plastic ones and go to the Pre-2000 metal tensioners that did not have the seal leaking issues. Most are aware of the fact that they will work, even though claims are that they will not.
Obviously tensioner seals leaking can cause issues on the top end after the lockouts, as you will starve the cam followers, ect, resulting in a top end rebuild or selling to one of us to fix it :P
Mike