Here's what I have:
2004 5.4 3v F150
185,000 miles (310K)
SCT Tuner (canned tunes)

I started researching what each of the settings meant in the canned tune. I came to "Fuel richness at WOT" finding that these trucks run lean with a cold air intake I started at a safe 2% with no noticeable changes.

4% = nothing
6% = nothing
I ran it at 10% for about 300kms without any issues. Then I put my summer wheels on (35" All terrains) and I felt the lag.

I bumped it up to 12% and after a few km's threw the P0022 code (Cam shaft over retarded). I've tried going back to stock as well and the code returns.

So far i've only done an oil change (Ford filter and 5w20) and that hasn't helped.

My symptoms are:
Laggy engine in the low RPMS but decent performance when I floor it.
bouncy idle
I don't notice any loud ticking or knocking as mentioned in many threads when it comes to bad cam phasers.

Would swapping the Cam shaft sensors determine anything since they are easy to get at. I'm guessing they may throw different codes if they are bad.

I can send my datalog if anyone is interested in taking a gander.

 

I had the truck down to Ford, they completed an oil pressure test and it came back within spec, which was surprising for a truck with 300k on it.

What are my next steps? Am I looking at a full timing set and cam phasers? Can I run lockouts on broken phasers to avoid buying new ones?

 

That mod costs $700 and is only good for that pcm . Your miles right in the range for a timing job . Lockouts degrade engine and don't fix anything .
Yes people blame the sensors when it points to a mech failure . You would have better luck changing the VCTs using oem parts .This circuit is hydraulically controlling the cams using dirty engine oil with small passages and filter screens. Your sensors say it isn't working .Just changing phasors is not the answer either .
Drop your oil pan and look for pieces of plastic guides . If you have them yes you need a timing job for sure . But you can reuse the new VCTs .
The plastic chain tensioners are the major failure point .Use the old style ratcheting metal tensioners without a seal to blow out . Consider only oem timing parts except for maybe a melling oil pump 340 or 360 .Read svares final fix .

 

I did pull the valve cover and inspect the solenoid and it looked clean.

You're probably right on the timing set, unfortunately. The truck runs great when I clear the DTC, however as soon as the check engine light comes on it's like it loses 100hp.

Thanks for the response, i've been reading forum information like crazy, I thought my problem may have been unrelated due to me messing with the fuel programming in my tuner.

 

A little information in addition to everything @redfishtd correctly stated.


There is no relationship whatsoever to your octane tune and DTC P0022.


Over retarded and advanced DTCs have very narrow and specific meanings. The PCM 'requests' a certain crankshaft degrees retard or advance (actually being "absence of retard" instead of true advance). The PCM then sends square wave pulses (duty cycle - a certain percentage of time on and the remainder of the time completely off) to the VCT solenoids. It then reads the Cam Positions from the Cam Position Sensors and compares Where they are, to where it requested them to be. (PCM actually does this VERY RAPIDLY in a 'closed' loop - live feedback fashion and will actively adjust VCT duty cycle duration up or down trying to accomplish this). If it has retarded the cams, and due to change in throttle / load / or other conditions, requests the cams to "Advance" some amount (in other words set them LESS retarded), and they don't 'timely' respond - they are Over Retarded. Over Advanced is the reverse condition.


More than 5 camshaft degrees (10 crankshaft degrees) from the 'Requested' position for more than 5 seconds results in a DTC, Over Retarded or Over Advanced as appropriate.


Getting THIS code basically tells you that your Cam Position Sensors ARE WORKING. If they aren't you'll get a different code.


Over Retarded says the Phasers, once positioned in a retarded attitude - are not "PROPERLY" returning to the base position when PCM requests the VCT spool valves to route oil pressure into the 'advance' passageways and Phaser chambers. This could be due to 'sticky' VCT plunger, or binding Phaser internals, or excessive DRAG on the camshaft from CAM bearings - rollers - or cam thrust bearing, weak Phaser clock spring, or slightly insufficient oil pressure to successfully accomplish the requested positioning. But nothing to do with octane.


A timing job is probably in your future.

 

If I'm getting this p0022 on a freshly redone engine, I'm assuming this points towards a mechanical failure. Other than a faulty new oem vct solenoid, this problem is most likely and internal issue

 

Wow. Sorry to hear that. I think getting the chain OFF by one tooth on a phaser during timing job will produce a P0022 and still run, though perhaps not very well. Other than that - I think you are right, its mechanical. Perhaps a stuck partly open VCT or Phaser NOT RETURNING TO BASE position, possibly due to trash getting into oil passageways and now lodged in a Phaser chamber keeping it from returning to zero retard. Did you use good OEM Phasers??
If you can get access to a live data monitor, you can monitor the OBDII signals for CAM ERROR for Bank 2. If there is 'residual' cam error there ALL the time, I might try 'shocking' VCT 2 by applying 12v to it (through about a 50 ohm resistor) and see if you could effect the error reading. If there is no 'residual' retard error - ie if it is intermittent, that might give you more ideas of which direction to go.


The above test can be done if you have or have access to Torque Pro (or a similar scanner which can read specified PIDS). The parameters and gauges are described here.
https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...4/#post5133357

 

I can't say thank you enough for this help. I'm using forscan on my laptop to view specific PIDs but i think I'm not viewing the correct ones. The motor seems to run great other than this intermittent rough idle condition. So I'm doubting the timing is off. Your thread you linked should help me very much. My current theory is disconnecting the VCT's and if the condition never occurs it's either a VCT or a Phaser.
Usually I'm seeing a P0022 code first and eventually a P0345 later if that matters. I was chasing the cam sensors but swapped them side to side, checked resistance they seem to be okay.

When I did timing components i used brand new Ford phasers and VCTs, a Melling 360 oil pump, and a cloyes timing kit. I also bought a felpro gasket kit and replaced the gasket for the VCT housings. I tried to do everything as best as I could with quality parts. I also did all new bearings and piston rings, new valve seats in the heads just for some background info.

 

Yes, unfortunately I'd say that matters. It is yet another indication that chain timing might be off. The 'fingers' on the Phasers that the CPS sensors detect will be at the outer edge of the range where the PCM expects them to be when it checks cam position - and becomes "FLAKY", and cam position is intermittent - or out of spec.

Several very smart capable guys helped Forum member @nugget68 through problems with P0340 (same DTC for other bank) after completing a timing job. You might take the time to read through that extensive thread and see if you pick up more information.

https://www.f150forum.com/f4/misfire...5/#post5052785


I learned through that exercise that Chain timing cannot be physically verified without removing the timing cover. I have since learned a lot more about using OBDII data to perhaps sort it out - since very few of us have o-scopes. I believe the two CAM position ERROR parameters should tell you the same thing - assuming the VCT solenoids are closing. Or can be made to close by unplugging them or 'rapping' on them with the but of a screw driver!


I'm not familiar with Forscan software, but if you can read specific PIDs, it should.


PCM is NOT requesting retard at idle (less than 800 RPM and 25% engine Load). This condition can be verified by monitoring PID # 16CD, known as "RCAM" or Requested Cam Retard, and it will be at Zero. At that point, no duty cycles are being applied to either VCT solenoid. That can be verified by monitoring PID # 16CF (Bank1 VCT) and PID # 091E (Bank2 VCT) and both will be zero - OR you can just unplug them. The results of establishment of these conditions should be VCTs routing 100% of available oil pressure/flow into advance chambers of Phasers, pushing cams to Zero degrees retard. If both cams are at ZERO degrees retard - Cam Error PID # 16CE (Bank1) and PID # 091D (Bank2) should both read at or very near ZERO. Formula: INT((SIGNED(A)*256)+B)/12.8


If there is positive or negative results - NOT GOOD .The cams are either retarded, or advanced that many degrees from where the PCM is requesting - which under the established conditions, (at idle), is Zero.

 

So I've been running the truck with both VCTs disconnected. Obviously I get code p0010 and p0020 indicating this. But not once in my 2 days of driving like this has the truck thrown a P0022 or P0345 or the symptoms of the over advanced at idle condition have appeared. So this leads me to believe the timing is fine on the engine. It's only when the timing gets stuck over advanced that the cam sensors are out of range where the PCM wants them. So I'm leading towards I have a defective Ford oem VCT selenoid. Would you guys agree on this logic.

I'm to believe that if a phaser was binding up internally or for some reason the truck would of still given me this code and rough idle sometime. But since the phasers returned to base timing I have no reason to believe they are an issue.