Thank You Ford
05-05-2016, 01:34 PM
#102
Member
Nonsense. Turbos do not kill engines by themselves. The technology is proven. A lot of those vehicles you mentioned not being on the road actually are on the road still. You see them less than their NA counterparts because in most cases the turbo models were the higher end options. Those are rarer than base models are. Many of those vehicles were built in the 1980s when overall vehicle quality was in the toilet. A lot of those vehicles aren't still running or on the road. Having a turbo has nothing to do with it.
Improperly cooled turbos outputting more boost than a given engine can handle kills engines. Yes, heat is an issue but there are a lot of ECOBOOST trucks on the roads in Texas and they aren't dying or failing in droves. Don't forget about all those turbo diesels out there in Texas either. Obviously we don't know if they'll still be kicking 10 years down the line like the NA engines do but I suspect they will. Again it works for the diesel guys. If anything kills them off it will be the BS that goes with direct injection, not simply having turbos attached to them. Yes, the 5.0L Coyote engine is less complex than the 3.5L ECOBOOST engine. Down the road there may be more maintenance issues for people who own them than there would be on equivalent gas engines but that's conjecture. We honestly don't know for sure. None of these engines are 10 years old regardless of mileage.
As for your apples-to-oranges turbodiesel comparison... Diesels, as I'm sure you know, run very high CRs. The Power Stroke runs about 17.5:1, while the Coyote runs an impressive 11:1, give or take for each. Diesels are made to do that (it's the principle upon which diesels operate, that the sheer compression is so high that the fuel-air combusts from the heat generated during compression instead of needing a spark plug). To do this, diesels are made with really beefy bottom-ends to handle that - and at a cost to that added strength, they need heavier parts to handle it, which makes diesels HEAVY and LOW RPM. But ya knew that, I'm sure...
- My nav works, but the software just isn't as good.
- It's slower than my Garmin, occasionally telling me my location to turn about 10 yards after I should have turned - I have to keep my eyes on it, which isn't as safe.
- The "electronic backseat driver" commands interrupt the radio.
- The traffic and re-routing for a Garmin comes in via HDRadio frequencies, so I have no subscriptions. No need for Sirius.
- I can turn my Garmin to Portrait or landscape orientation (I do portrait so I can see further ahead).
- My Garmin has a lot of businesses in the HDRadio signals, which are nice and pretty up-to-date. No need for Sirius.
- The voice command features on the Garmin work GREAT.
- The touch screen on my Garmin is literally TOUCH screen.
- If something goes wrong with my Garmin, I can simply replace it with a newer one.
- I can take it out and use it in a rental car on business trips.
- Updates for my Garmin are free and easy to do (plug it in and it automatically runs the program on my computer to get the updates from their site).
- Saving favorites on a Garmin is much more user friendly compared to the Ford.
- Menus for traffic avoidances and other settings on the Garmin are a lot more logically arranged.
- Display on the Garmin is much clearer.
- Garmin has many different voices from which to choose.
Clearly you like your Ford Nav really well - and I hope I'm missing out on something, like if there's an alternative to the Sirius subscription or something else? I want mine to be as lovable as my Garmin, but I haven't had that magic moment yet. It beats paper maps and dead-reckoning, but falls WAY short of what Garmin offers. Apologies for going off-topic regarding the engines...
Last edited by Suburb Cowboy; 05-05-2016 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Added some more reasons I'm not as keen on the Nav in the truck.
The following users liked this post:
cmbezln (05-05-2016)
05-05-2016, 01:48 PM
#103
Senior Member
As for your apples-to-oranges turbodiesel comparison... Diesels, as I'm sure you know, run very high CRs. The Power Stroke runs about 17.5:1, while the Coyote runs an impressive 11:1, give or take for each. Diesels are made to do that (it's the principle upon which diesels operate, that the sheer compression is so high that the fuel-air combusts from the heat generated during compression instead of needing a spark plug). To do this, diesels are made with really beefy bottom-ends to handle that - and at a cost to that added strength, they need heavier parts to handle it, which makes diesels HEAVY and LOW RPM. But ya knew that, I'm sure...
05-05-2016, 01:54 PM
#104
Member
And I'm sure you know that the Eco bottom end was also built for the application. It's not just a NA motor with added Forced Induction. Just like diesels, the bottom end of the Eco is made for boost. There are some fair comparisons between the design of a turbo diesel engine and a turbo gas engines.
Does it have a pre/post lube like an Accusump? An electric oil pump or something else to keep the turbo oiled while it's spooling down after a drive - or to pre-lube the turbo since it'd normally be the last thing to get oil? That'd be sweet.
05-05-2016, 02:10 PM
#105
Senior Member
And, I did NOT know that. Thank you for setting me straight.
Does it have a pre/post lube like an Accusump? An electric oil pump or something else to keep the turbo oiled while it's spooling down after a drive - or to pre-lube the turbo since it'd normally be the last thing to get oil? That'd be sweet.
Does it have a pre/post lube like an Accusump? An electric oil pump or something else to keep the turbo oiled while it's spooling down after a drive - or to pre-lube the turbo since it'd normally be the last thing to get oil? That'd be sweet.
Here is a snip from an article on the Eco Turbo's.
Reliable to the Extreme
Turbochargers operate at high speed – up to 170,000 rpm – and under intense temperatures of up to 950 degrees Celsius (1,740 degrees Fahrenheit). Some previous-generation turbos were reputed to suffer from oil coking, in which they would bake their lubricating oil. Because oil coking can lead to premature turbocharger bearing failures, Ford’s advanced engine engineers specified the use of new, water-cooled turbochargers to combat this problem.
“During normal turbo operation, the turbo receives most of its bearing cooling through oil,” said Keith Plagens, turbo system engineer. “After shut down, the problems with turbos in the past were you would get coking in the center bearing. Oil would collect in the bearings, the heat soaks in and the oil would start to coke on the side and foul the bearing. Water cooling – used in the EcoBoost engine – eliminates that worry.”
The new EcoBoost V-6 uses two Honeywell GT15 water-cooled turbos.
“The EcoBoost engine uses passive thermal siphoning for water cooling,” Plagens explains. “During normal engine operation, the engine’s water pump cycles coolant through the center bearing. After engine shutdown renders the water pump inactive, the coolant flow reverses. Coolant heats up and flows away from the turbocharger water jacket, pulling fresh, cool coolant in behind. This highly effective coolant process is completely silent to the driver, continuing to protect the turbocharger.”
Source:
http://www.at.ford.com/news/cn/Artic...tyTesting.aspx
and
http://gcg.com.au/index.php?option=c...tuff&Itemid=99
Last edited by Blown F-150; 05-05-2016 at 02:22 PM.
05-05-2016, 02:33 PM
#106
And, I did NOT know that. Thank you for setting me straight.
Does it have a pre/post lube like an Accusump? An electric oil pump or something else to keep the turbo oiled while it's spooling down after a drive - or to pre-lube the turbo since it'd normally be the last thing to get oil? That'd be sweet.
Does it have a pre/post lube like an Accusump? An electric oil pump or something else to keep the turbo oiled while it's spooling down after a drive - or to pre-lube the turbo since it'd normally be the last thing to get oil? That'd be sweet.
Last edited by cmbezln; 05-05-2016 at 02:36 PM.
05-05-2016, 02:35 PM
#107
Member
The turbo's are oil and water cooled. This is meant resolve the oil coking issues of oil cooled turbos. The system also allows for the regular user to not have to worry about idling and cooling down the turbos. If I do a hard pull or climb, I still do let the turbos "cool down", but it might be pointless.
Here is a snip from an article on the Eco Turbo's.
Reliable to the Extreme
Turbochargers operate at high speed – up to 170,000 rpm – and under intense temperatures of up to 950 degrees Celsius (1,740 degrees Fahrenheit). Some previous-generation turbos were reputed to suffer from oil coking, in which they would bake their lubricating oil. Because oil coking can lead to premature turbocharger bearing failures, Ford’s advanced engine engineers specified the use of new, water-cooled turbochargers to combat this problem.
“During normal turbo operation, the turbo receives most of its bearing cooling through oil,” said Keith Plagens, turbo system engineer. “After shut down, the problems with turbos in the past were you would get coking in the center bearing. Oil would collect in the bearings, the heat soaks in and the oil would start to coke on the side and foul the bearing. Water cooling – used in the EcoBoost engine – eliminates that worry.”
The new EcoBoost V-6 uses two Honeywell GT15 water-cooled turbos.
“The EcoBoost engine uses passive thermal siphoning for water cooling,” Plagens explains. “During normal engine operation, the engine’s water pump cycles coolant through the center bearing. After engine shutdown renders the water pump inactive, the coolant flow reverses. Coolant heats up and flows away from the turbocharger water jacket, pulling fresh, cool coolant in behind. This highly effective coolant process is completely silent to the driver, continuing to protect the turbocharger.”
Source:
http://www.at.ford.com/news/cn/Artic...tyTesting.aspx
and
http://gcg.com.au/index.php?option=c...tuff&Itemid=99
Here is a snip from an article on the Eco Turbo's.
Reliable to the Extreme
Turbochargers operate at high speed – up to 170,000 rpm – and under intense temperatures of up to 950 degrees Celsius (1,740 degrees Fahrenheit). Some previous-generation turbos were reputed to suffer from oil coking, in which they would bake their lubricating oil. Because oil coking can lead to premature turbocharger bearing failures, Ford’s advanced engine engineers specified the use of new, water-cooled turbochargers to combat this problem.
“During normal turbo operation, the turbo receives most of its bearing cooling through oil,” said Keith Plagens, turbo system engineer. “After shut down, the problems with turbos in the past were you would get coking in the center bearing. Oil would collect in the bearings, the heat soaks in and the oil would start to coke on the side and foul the bearing. Water cooling – used in the EcoBoost engine – eliminates that worry.”
The new EcoBoost V-6 uses two Honeywell GT15 water-cooled turbos.
“The EcoBoost engine uses passive thermal siphoning for water cooling,” Plagens explains. “During normal engine operation, the engine’s water pump cycles coolant through the center bearing. After engine shutdown renders the water pump inactive, the coolant flow reverses. Coolant heats up and flows away from the turbocharger water jacket, pulling fresh, cool coolant in behind. This highly effective coolant process is completely silent to the driver, continuing to protect the turbocharger.”
Source:
http://www.at.ford.com/news/cn/Artic...tyTesting.aspx
and
http://gcg.com.au/index.php?option=c...tuff&Itemid=99
05-05-2016, 02:36 PM
#108
I'm totally with you on most of your points regarding choosing NA over FI, but you can't really compare modern day turbos/FI applications to ones from 20 years ago, a lot of those old turbos blew up or caused issue due to improper care and a lack of technology to overcome that.
Although, today we see a lot of issues that come from manufacturers trying to meet EPA regulations (ie ringland failures, stock tunes running entirely too lean, thinner oil recommendations, etc). Golden years were early 2000s.
Although, today we see a lot of issues that come from manufacturers trying to meet EPA regulations (ie ringland failures, stock tunes running entirely too lean, thinner oil recommendations, etc). Golden years were early 2000s.
05-05-2016, 02:37 PM
#109
Senior Member
Yeah, like Blown F-150 said, most modern day turbo applications are both water and oil cooled and do have an electric pump to pump water through the turbo after it's turned off, not before though (correct me if im wrong).
I'm totally with you on most of your points regarding choosing NA over FI, but you can't really compare modern day turbos/FI applications to ones from 20 years ago, a lot of those old turbos blew up or caused issue due to improper care and a lack of technology to overcome that.
Although, today we see a lot of issues that come from manufacturers trying to meet EPA regulations (ie ringland failures, stock tunes running entirely too lean, thinner oil recommendations, etc). Golden years were early 2000s.
I'm totally with you on most of your points regarding choosing NA over FI, but you can't really compare modern day turbos/FI applications to ones from 20 years ago, a lot of those old turbos blew up or caused issue due to improper care and a lack of technology to overcome that.
Although, today we see a lot of issues that come from manufacturers trying to meet EPA regulations (ie ringland failures, stock tunes running entirely too lean, thinner oil recommendations, etc). Golden years were early 2000s.
I found a pretty good thread on the "Myths" around the Eco. Some if it is a bit one-sided, but there is a lot of good info.
https://www.f150forum.com/f70/common...165949/index3/
05-06-2016, 05:53 AM
#110
Senior Member
Screw you guys for making this thread educational. Bottom line, the geikoboost ain't a v8. It wants to be one, but it ain't. Like Diet Coke ain't Coke, bud light ain't Budweiser, and chicken at the Chinese place ain't chicken. The 5.0 is as American as apple pie and baseball.
The following users liked this post:
Jmpell (05-08-2016)