Techron?
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,336
Likes: 451
From: Memphis TN
I wish what you were talking about made sense, but the only thing that richens lambda in the OEM tune is exhaust gas temperature modeling and catalytic temperature modeling based on the Estimated EGT's. Truck doesn't have an EGT sensor but Ford put in the work to model it in the lab and setup tables that actually know how high EGT's are based on load and a variety of factors that they modeled in said lab.
There's a load timer as well as the EGT modeling that results in Lambda that looks like a slope as you rev out the engine. It runs literally 1.0 lambda at lower rpms and richens up as you rev, to the point where if you're in the throttle for longer than 2 gears at wide open throttle you're running .68 lambda (10.00 AFR)
IAT compensation is not what you're referring to. IAT compensation exists solely to make sure as temperature changes your AFR is still accurate.
On 87 octane the ecoboost engines never get over 2 degrees of ignition timing anywhere under wide open throttle. In fact most of the entire rev range they're around -2 to -8 degrees of timing.
YMMV on the gen1 ecoboost motors, since they're 100% DI they most likely run more ignition timing than the new ones do.
As far as 93 vs 87, the ecoboost will benefit greatly year round, regardless of temperature. IAT being lower will result in higher base timing since there's less immediate ignition adjustment based on iat.
There's a load timer as well as the EGT modeling that results in Lambda that looks like a slope as you rev out the engine. It runs literally 1.0 lambda at lower rpms and richens up as you rev, to the point where if you're in the throttle for longer than 2 gears at wide open throttle you're running .68 lambda (10.00 AFR)
IAT compensation is not what you're referring to. IAT compensation exists solely to make sure as temperature changes your AFR is still accurate.
On 87 octane the ecoboost engines never get over 2 degrees of ignition timing anywhere under wide open throttle. In fact most of the entire rev range they're around -2 to -8 degrees of timing.
YMMV on the gen1 ecoboost motors, since they're 100% DI they most likely run more ignition timing than the new ones do.
As far as 93 vs 87, the ecoboost will benefit greatly year round, regardless of temperature. IAT being lower will result in higher base timing since there's less immediate ignition adjustment based on iat.
When the OAT is 90F or higher the IAT is often over 100F. Now admittedly for my purposes and I assume more peoples - there is sitting in traffic to consider. I know my IAT's go up over 100F in the summer. At that point running 87 octane causes the computer to enrichen the mix to prevent ping and knock retard. EGT mapping doesn't really matter there it's purely the fact that 87 octane has the potential to knock so there is a enrichment to prevent it. Remember all the performance values for the ecoboost engines, most others as well are set today using a 91 octane reference standard of pure gasoline. The maps are then tweaked to tolerate running on pump 87 with ethanol in it. Not that the ethanol is really a factor here.
knock retard other than adjusting timing - also enrichens mix. Doesn't change lambda - but it does impact injector time.
When the IAT is high there is going to be added fuel put into the mix so there is less chance for ping or knock - and if there is any sensing of ping there will be more fuel enrichment added. Again EGT map notwithstanding as it's not about EGT management it's about keeping the pistons whole or the head gasket in place. With 93 octane there is significantly less potential for ping or knock - so those tables are different. And it's enough to not only run better - it's going to. But it also saves some MPG's over the course of the drive. Especially for me in 1/2 city traffic.
THe whole EGT mapping thing is there to save the cats and the turbo's to a lesser degree. It's not there to for fuel mix or for the efficiency of the engine.
Basically a little it extra fuel cools down the cylinder and prevents knock.
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,229
Likes: 613
From: Louisiana
Dude, i'm telling you, without a doubt in my mind, because i've tuned 100+ vehicles, what you're saying is not true. Knock retard changes mixture since less timing will result in a different amount of fuel demand, but this is what the wideband O2 sensors and stft/ltft exist for. It's still going to target exactly the Lambda it is told to target, it does not richen up to remove knock, it retards timing to remove knock and keeps lambda exactly as it is requested, which 99% of the time is 1.0. What i described is how it dumps fuel to cool things off. It does not enrichen the mixture when running 87, that is not how it controls knock. There's tons of stuff limiting timing all in the map, preginition limits, cylinder pressure limits, cylinder offset, lspi load limits.
There's manifold temperature control and catalyst temperature control and they're tied together in the fuel tables. The extra fuel is there to cool off the manifold,turbo and catalyst. It's there specifically to prevent scenarios that would crack the head from boiling coolant near the exhaust from high EGT's.
Injector time is based on crank position, timing is independent of injector anyways... they are obviously related ,but in a roundabout way.
Nothing you're mentioning is happening. It doesn't richen up anything to prevent knock. I'm serious.
There's manifold temperature control and catalyst temperature control and they're tied together in the fuel tables. The extra fuel is there to cool off the manifold,turbo and catalyst. It's there specifically to prevent scenarios that would crack the head from boiling coolant near the exhaust from high EGT's.
Injector time is based on crank position, timing is independent of injector anyways... they are obviously related ,but in a roundabout way.
Nothing you're mentioning is happening. It doesn't richen up anything to prevent knock. I'm serious.
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 386
Likes: 80
From: Rochester,NY
Seafoam is detrimental to the turbos it gets them real hot and damages the turbo Fins,In the gas NG in the oil I don't know probably washes the varnish and Gum on critical bearings and rings
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,229
Likes: 613
From: Louisiana
The turbo turbine wheels are made of a high end inconel alloy that doesn't even fatigue until like 800C. The raptor has a mar-m246 alloy that doesnt' fatigue until 1050C!!!! It's crazy.
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 203
Likes: 45
From: Las Vegas
Fill your tank halfway with E-85 drive it for a while then power down the truck so the computer will adjust for the higher octane of the E-85. Theoretically E-85 is 104-110 octane. If your just running it at the track it's the best to use. I wouldn't use the crap on a daily basis though since the MPG sucks.
5 Year Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 274
Likes: 92
From: Northeastern Michigan
Shell Gasoline
A little more info on Shell's gasoline additive concentrations in their fuels.
This is in response to your inquiry today regarding Shell gasoline – all Shell gasoline grades contain the patented nitrogen enriched detergent package, but Shell V-Power NiTRO+ Premium gasoline contains the highest concentration of the cleaning system (approximately 7X the amount of detergent required by the EPA). In fact, the regular 87 grade has approx. 50% of the amount of nitrogen enriched detergent add pack as the Premium V-Power NiTRO+ product, and the mid-grade would have approx. 75% of the amount in the V-Power NiTRO+ product.
Best regards,
Aly Tuñgol
Shell Technical Information
1-800-237-8645 (Option 3, 1)
Safety and technical data sheets for active Shell products can be found at www.epc.shell.com.
Review our products here: www.rotella.com, www.pennzoil.com, www.quakerstate.com.
Distributor locator: www.roadtothechampionship.com/contacts/public.
[img]file:///C:\Users\Orion\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image001.png[img]file:///C:\Users\Orion\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image002.jpg[img]file:///C:\Users\Orion\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image003.jpg[img]file:///C:\Users\Orion\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image004.jpg
This is in response to your inquiry today regarding Shell gasoline – all Shell gasoline grades contain the patented nitrogen enriched detergent package, but Shell V-Power NiTRO+ Premium gasoline contains the highest concentration of the cleaning system (approximately 7X the amount of detergent required by the EPA). In fact, the regular 87 grade has approx. 50% of the amount of nitrogen enriched detergent add pack as the Premium V-Power NiTRO+ product, and the mid-grade would have approx. 75% of the amount in the V-Power NiTRO+ product.
Best regards,
Aly Tuñgol
Shell Technical Information
1-800-237-8645 (Option 3, 1)
Safety and technical data sheets for active Shell products can be found at www.epc.shell.com.
Review our products here: www.rotella.com, www.pennzoil.com, www.quakerstate.com.
Distributor locator: www.roadtothechampionship.com/contacts/public.
[img]file:///C:\Users\Orion\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image001.png[img]file:///C:\Users\Orion\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image002.jpg[img]file:///C:\Users\Orion\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image003.jpg[img]file:///C:\Users\Orion\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\ clip_image004.jpg
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 2,336
Likes: 451
From: Memphis TN
Dude, i'm telling you, without a doubt in my mind, because i've tuned 100+ vehicles, what you're saying is not true. Knock retard changes mixture since less timing will result in a different amount of fuel demand, but this is what the wideband O2 sensors and stft/ltft exist for. It's still going to target exactly the Lambda it is told to target, it does not richen up to remove knock, it retards timing to remove knock and keeps lambda exactly as it is requested, which 99% of the time is 1.0. What i described is how it dumps fuel to cool things off. It does not enrichen the mixture when running 87, that is not how it controls knock. There's tons of stuff limiting timing all in the map, preginition limits, cylinder pressure limits, cylinder offset, lspi load limits.
There's manifold temperature control and catalyst temperature control and they're tied together in the fuel tables. The extra fuel is there to cool off the manifold,turbo and catalyst. It's there specifically to prevent scenarios that would crack the head from boiling coolant near the exhaust from high EGT's.
Injector time is based on crank position, timing is independent of injector anyways... they are obviously related ,but in a roundabout way.
Nothing you're mentioning is happening. It doesn't richen up anything to prevent knock. I'm serious.
There's manifold temperature control and catalyst temperature control and they're tied together in the fuel tables. The extra fuel is there to cool off the manifold,turbo and catalyst. It's there specifically to prevent scenarios that would crack the head from boiling coolant near the exhaust from high EGT's.
Injector time is based on crank position, timing is independent of injector anyways... they are obviously related ,but in a roundabout way.
Nothing you're mentioning is happening. It doesn't richen up anything to prevent knock. I'm serious.
Damn it all to hell - not knock - predetonation. the added fuel is to prevent predetonation. cool down the cylinder some. It's an engine protection mode not a map function. I have to image it's not changeable via tables or parameters in the logic. During integration testing the ECU's are different than the production so there are more bits to fiddle with. after set those are removed from the production ECU - and I can't image any tuning system can touch the protection logic - or mine don't. But I've not updated my HP tuners in a while. Anywho - there are things you can't change and this light enrichment is one of them. And you are right I switched up my damn terms. not for knock but predetonation. when IAT is higher and using 87 octane the likelihood of pre detonation is considerably higher.
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 2,229
Likes: 613
From: Louisiana
There's a lot of protection scenarios in the ecu, some you can turn off (dumping fuel to cool exhaust, coolant overtemp protection can be turned off too). I have never seen and doubt i ever will see anything modifying the lambda to be richer. If there was you'd see it in datalogs where the ecu would be targeting richer lambda, and the fuel source would be some sort of protection mechanism. I've never seen fuel source be anything but CL-Stoich, catalyst temp, tipout-decel, decel, and tipin-accel really.