RACarvalho

Back in the 80s BMW had a 1.5L turbo engine that would deliver 1500 Hps in the F1 racing...... That engine won the F1 championship 3 times, If my memory is right...
So if that engine was so amazing, why you don't see semis with that engine today???
Because that engine would last only one race!!!!
All the argument for the modern small displacement engines is fuel efficiency and that is, in the context that we are discussing (full size trucks), a lie. There is a price nature charge for a certain job and doesn't matter what displacement you have, you will pay the same...
Last year I went camping with a friend. We were with our 2018 F150 V8 and our 9000lbs camper.
They where with a 2014 F250 6.2L V8 and a 10000lbs camper.
Coming back we drove the same stretch of highway at the same speed for 50 miles until a dump station....
His set up made 1mpg better than me.... Which just prove to me that, again, we are paying more to have less when you go small "high tech" engine.... My truck could have a modern 6.7L NA push rod V8 which would be cheaper than the Coyote and I would have a cheaper and more fuel efficient truck.... Pay less and get more....
Yes, when empty and in the city I will do better than he did but again, the 6.2L is old and Ford already know that and is delivering a 7.3L NA push rod V8 as a solution.....

sholxgt

You are only looking at towing. If I were to take a crazy wild guess, I'd say that if you took ALL F150's on the road, less than 2-3% of them are towing at any given time. So, for that 2-3% of the trucks on the road, a bigger n/a pushrod motor is better. For the 97-98% of the rest of the trucks, they will get better fuel economy with a smaller motor.

So, if you have a dedicated tow rig, buy a diesel. If you have a truck that tows on occasion, buy a 2.7EB. If you have a truck that tows more often or heavier buy a 5.0 or 3.5EB.

At no time do I see a big gas motor as the best choice. The diesel will get better fuel economy towing and the small displacement gas motors will get better fuel economy when not towing.

Here's where you and I will agree. I believe that Ford is bringing out the gas 7.3 because the government has gone way, way overboard on trying to kill diesels. At the rate we are going they will be so neutered and unreliable due to interference that the large gas motor will be the only reliable option. That will have us burning more fuel overall since the diesel is still more efficient for heavy duty use.

bisonp

I see electrics working well as lifestyle trucks and urban delivery trucks. Which is still a big chunk of the market so the big 3 need to take it seriously.

Rivian and Atlas make impressive payload, towing, and range claims that would make them practical for a lot more. But I'll believe it when I see it.

RACarvalho

I don't know what % of F150 tows but based on Ford insistence in advertise the best towing and payload capability, I would say that those are critical items in their customer mind... Even the 2.7L can have a 7000lbs towing capacity which is not little weight.... So I'm inclined to believe that a lot of F150 owners tow. I see a lot of F150s in the camping we do....
The idea that you are saving $ with a Diesel truck is not true in most of the cases.
Before buying my F150 I did the calculation and, even though I tow 8000 miles per year, it would take me 8 years and 130K+ miles(total, towing and not towing) for the savings in fuel to pay for the $9000 premium price that I would have to pay in advance to get the diesel. This does not take into consideration the differences in taxes, registration and certainly do not consider any expensive repair to the exhaust treatment system.... The only reason to go diesel today (in the context of personal use and towing - not working with the truck) is because GM, Ford and Ram doesn't offer a truck that can tow more than 16000lbs with a gas engine. I believe Ford will release the F250/F350 with the 7.3L with a capacity to tow up to 25K lbs on a dually version... If they do that at the right price, diesel for towing campers is done.... But again, not for any good reason, just government interference....
Just for information, fedex only use gas engines on their delivery trucks - class 6 - which run all day/every day...
So yes, there is a place for modern big NA gas engines for that is what the economics call for IF the gov. doesn't interfere ....

RACarvalho

The beauty of freedom is that an individual can choose what to do with their money, including pay more to have less, and that is ok for that is their money.
Nevertheless, History shows that this kind of consumer market is not big enough to justify a product..... So the "lifestyle" people would have to acomodate their lifestyle to the dynamics of value that the overall market has.
Electric urban delivery trucks only make sense today if the Mayor decrees no fossil fuel burning inside city.... Again, it is a political, not market/economy decision.... As soon as the mayor is out and the new mayor reverses that imposition, gas and diesel are back for they make more economic sense.
Also, a big problem of electric vehicles is that the battery is heavy and for working trucks, the bigger the battery the less payload you have so, again, you will be paying more to have the electric version and have less payload per vehicle.... Obviously, everything that that electric truck delivers will be more expensive and you and me will be paying more for everything..... for nothing....
As for Rivian, Atlas, etc.... I need to ask: Where is the Tesla truck???? Why Rivian and Atlas would be different than Cummins, Daimler, MAN, etc. if the laws of physics and economics are the same for everyone????
Obviously anyone that produces a real truck today can put together an electric truck for the technology is well known but why they don't do it? Because it doesn't make sense.... The battery of Tesla truck cost $200K alone.... The same price of a new Class 8 semi...
Real world doesn't work based on power point presentations and 4K computer rendering.....

sholxgt

I said diesels use less fuel. Didn't say they cost less to operate. Once again though, that is due to government interference. Diesel fuel costs less to produce and yet costs more to buy. The DEF fluids and maintenance costs are also mostly due to government interference.

You sure about FedEx running gas trucks? - https://about.van.fedex.com/newsroom...cles-to-fleet/

blkZ28spt

Factor in the additional cost of the diesel? Especially if you're talking a real tow vehicle, the super duty, and the ~$9,000 upgrade to get the diesel. How do you plan to get that $ back when spending more $/gal on diesel? That's a huge cost up front

Even if the F150, the baby diesel is the most expensive engine by a long shot

What are you even arguing?

From a consumer/user perspective, what is the value of fuel mileage if you aren't considering price? What advantage do you the buyer and driver get for improved fuel efficiency that costs you more money??

sholxgt

Some people care about the environment and would rather not support foreign countries by purchasing their fuel.

Agree from the cost standpoint, but I always ask...why does diesel cost more than gas in the US, but is usually less than gas in Europe?

RACarvalho

The Reach VAN is not a class 6 truck....

blkZ28spt

So you believe in spending more money for less, for the environment or to support foreign countries less...unless government regulations are the cause of that, in which case, you don't care about the environment or foreign country support because the government regulations are causing you to do it so now it's bad? Your statements seem extremely inconsistent.


I would ask...does diesel cost less per liter/gallon in the US than it does in Europe?

Does a diesel engine upgrade in a super duty cost less in the US than it does in Europe?

So, what's all this about Europe?