broncojunkie

Lol! I'm thinking pip, too. But not sure about a good way to test it. I think this is how...
I have a wiring diagram for the the icm plug. One wire is the signal from the pip. I'm guessing if the pip sensor is bad, that means it's not sending signal through that wire. So I can put a test light on that wire and crank the motor. If no signal, then the pip is bad. Correct?

And I'm hoping that when I was trying to start it multiple times, the starter solenoid on the fender is going bad (sticking or welding itself closed).

Chris_1

iTrader: (1)

The fender solenoid's cheap so I'd just try a new one. It might be hanging up.
The way to test the pip is to see if it's actually grounding (which takes the LED setup because a regular test light won't flash fast enough.
From what you've written, you probably already know this, but just to review - Power to the coil (without a ground) causes the secondary windings in the coil to build a charge. The PIP intermittently grounds it which causes the secondary windings to blast a charge out the top. If it doesn't ground, nothing happens. If it does ground, you get your 80,000 volts (or whatever) to make a spark.
Changing out the PIP is a real PITA, mostly getting the gear off and getting it back on exactly lined up for the split pin to go in, because you can't turn it, even a little, once you start putting it back on. Other than that, it's pretty basic.
And just so you know, they use the same PIP in 302's and 300 - 6's.
I had a used 300 dist, so I pulled the pip for a v8. but if you have to go buy a new one, it's like $60 or more, which is a pretty high percentage of the cost of a whole new distributor, so it's a consideration.
Other than the hanging up starter thing, you've got the exact same symptoms as the truck I was playing around with in the spring. Everybody here said it was the pip, (they are known for the problem) but I didn't feel like pulling a dist so I checked every other possibility first. Finally changed the pip and vroom.

broncojunkie

I've already decided I'm changing the distributor instead of just the pip, if that's the problem. Just so we're clear on how testing the pip works, I was almost right? Instead of checking for power at the pip lead, I'm checking for ground...which means I'll place my + tester lead onto the battery's positive terminal, and then - end of the test light to the wire from the pip? And if it flashes while cranking, it should be working...no flash means a bad pip?

And I was planning on accessing this wire from the plug that goes into the icm. Does that sound right?

Chris_1

iTrader: (1)

Sounds right. I'm going to try to attach something - cross your fingers. It's a pretty good write up. Note that it's an LED test light for the pip. How to Test the Ford Ignition Control Module


November 10, 2009 Updated: November 17, 2014 Written by: Abraham Torres-Arredondo

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TEST 6: Verifying the
Ignition Coil's Switching Signal

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In this test you're gonna' verify that the ignition control module (ICM) is activating the ignition coil by verifying that the switching signal is present.
You're going to use a test light. This test is performed with the engine being cranked, so be careful and take all necessary safety precautions.
Here are the test steps:

1. This test is performed with the ignition coil connector connected.
2. Insert the metal probe end of the test light to the rear of the connector to back-probe the terminal on the right side of the ignition coil connector (look at the photo in the image viewer). The ‘right side’ in automotive speak always refers to anything on the passenger side.
   1. Or you can probe the circuit labeled with the number 2 (see 2nd photo in the image viewer) of the ignition control module.
   2. Both wires are part of the same circuit, so it doesn't matter which of the two you probe, both will give you the same test result.
3. Connect alligator clip end of the test light to the battery (+) Positive terminal. It is IMPORTANT that it be connected at the battery positive terminal.
4. Have an assistant crank the engine.
5. The Test Light should blink on and off as the engine is being cranked.
   1. When you probe the ignition coil's switching signal wire... the 12 Volt Test Light will come on with the Key in the On Position and before you crank the engine.... this is normal.
   2. The 12 Volt test light result that you want to watch out for is while the engine is cranking... whatever it does before you crank the engine doesn't matter.

OK, let's interpret your test results:
CASE 1: If the test light flashed On and Off, then the ignition coil is BAD, and you need to replace it to get your Ford vehicle to start.
This also means that the ignition control module (ICM) and Pick Up Coil are GOOD. Replacing the ignition coil will solve your No Spark/No Start Condition.
Here's why: So far, you have verified several important things:

1. That the ignition coil is NOT sparking (TEST 3 and TEST 4).
2. That the ignition module is providing the switching signal (activation signal).

Taking all of the above test results into account... you can confidently conclude that the ignition coil is BAD and needs to be replaced.
CASE 2: If the Test Light DID NOT flash On and Off, re-check all of your connections and retry the test again.
If the test light still does not flash on and off... this usually indicates one of two things: either the ignition control module is BAD or the PIP sensor is BAD...
...Don't worry, in the next test step, we'll find out for sure. GO TO TEST 7.
TEST 7: Testing the
Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) Signal

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Here we'll check that the Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) Sensor Signal is being received by the ignition control module (ICM).
The PIP Signal is critical for the ignition module to start sparking the ignition coil (and a bunch of other stuff the Fuel Injection Computer needs to do, like start activating the fuel injectors).
This will be achieved by using an LED test tool. Click here for a picture of this LED tool and how to make it. Do not use a test light in lieu of an LED Light.
Here are the test steps:

1. With key in the OFF position.
2. With a suitable tool, pierce the number 6 circuit wire of the ignition control module connector.
3. Connect the BLACK wire of LED to the tool that is piercing the wire.
4. Connect the RED wire of the LED to the BATTERY (+) POSITIVE terminal.
5. Have an assistant crank the engine while you observe the LED.

The LED should start to blink on and off as the engine is cranked. Is the LED blinking on and off as the engine is cranked? (Oscilloscope Users see photo 3 of 3, in the image viewer, for full size picture of Wave Form)
CASE 1: If the LED light flashed on and off the whole time the engine was being cranked, then the PIP (Profile Ignition Pickup) sensor is creating and sending its signal.
This result indicates that the ignition control module is BAD and the cause of the NO SPARK and CRANKS but DOES NOT START Condition. Replace the ignition control module (ICM).
CASE 2: If the LED Light DID NOT flash on and off the whole time the engine was being cranked, then the PIP (Profile Ignition Pickup) sensor is BAD and is the cause of the NO SPARK and CRANKS but DOES NOT START Condition.
Replacing the PIP sensor (in the distributor) will get the ignition coil sparking again.

Chris_1

iTrader: (1)

It worked ! Couldn't load directly, had to do a copy/paste sort of thing. Anyway, I think that article is pretty clear.

broncojunkie

Beautiful! Exactly what I need! Will try this tomorrow and let you know how it turns out.

broncojunkie

I still haven't been able to try the above test you posted for me. i was out running all over the place looking for a hood for my 88 Mustang. The body shop needed it asap. Got home a little while ago (after dark) and replaced the starter solenoid on the fender to try and resolve the cranking issue. It didn't help, so I took off the starter. Will take it in to the parts store tomorrow. It has a lifetime warranty and is only a year old.

I was able to pick up a led test light today. O'reily's had one. Wasn't sure if it was led because it didn't say on the package, but some of the wording lead me to believe that it was. Went ahead and bought it and tried it out in the car cigarette lighter. It was led, so happy that I don't have to go to Radio Shack. I always want to choke the people there, lol!

broncojunkie

Took the starter in today to have it tested. It passed according to the machine, but when I spoke to the guy about what was going on, he agreed that it pretty much had to be the starter. I guess their machine doesn't test for the issue I was having. They replaced it under warranty. Put it on and no more "keeps cranking" issue. Will have to wait for this evening to do the other test, when I have a helper.

broncojunkie

Ok, I checked the pip sensor and I am getting a pulse signal, so it is working. However, I noticed the motor was turning over slowly like the battery was going dead. I had it on charge all last night and it should have been charged up. I charged it because i've been working on it for few days...trying to crank it and such, so I figured it could use it. I pulled off the positive terminal. Yanked the fuse for the radio and left it out. Hooked up my meter between the positive battery post and the positive terminal. Sure enough, it's showing a draw of around 11v. Pulled every fuse in the truck one by one and it is still showing a draw. To say I'm at my wit's end is a gross understatement.

Chris_1

iTrader: (1)

??? You've got power to the coil, the coil tested good, the icm tested good and you've got a pip signal but still no spark ? Doesn't make sense.
Wires, cap or rotor ??
By the way, saw a picture of your truck in another post. Way too good looking of a truck to not be running.