Payload - Why is this Concept Difficult
09-03-2018, 09:43 PM
#21
Senior Member
While I started driving pickup trucks around the farm in about 1967, the first truck I purchased new was a 1974 International Harvester 3/4 ton 4x4 with the 345 V8, single-cab 8' bed (the last year IHC pickups were made, excepting the Scout Terra). That thing was geared low and ready to work. It was a " luxury" truck, as it had a fabric bench seat, AM radio, and sliding rear window. No AC or power windows and vinyl floor.. Two-speed New Process transfer case but automatic-locking hubs. I added larger mirrors, in-dash CB radio, 12" x 16.5" 10-ply tires, and overload springs. I pulled a 14' gooseneck dump grain trailer, but also had and swapped between a slide-in 10' livestock rack for cattle and hogs, , a tall aluminum topper (for delivering seed corn to the field and keeping it dry and safe), and a 8' slide-in camper. Rubber bed mats didn't exist so I cut plywood to fit on either side of the binkley hitch plate to make it easier to scoop ground livestock feed out of the bed without scratching the bed and making a level place to use the scoop shovel or sweep out firewood debris.
At that time a truck was a truck, and if you went on a date, to church, shopping to town, or to the local football game, you drove a car (mine was a Mustang). While I had a slide-in truck camper, the average towable camper at the time was probably a 18 foot Shasta. A lot of Datsun pickup or, Ford Courier pickup Class C mini-motorhomes were being manufactured and sold at the time, and consumers enjoyed them.
Today, purchasers want a lot more! Not just AC, carpeted floors, cruse control and power windows, but full entertainment and information systems, driver aide technologies, power running boards, massaging seats, leather interiors, tonneau covers, power moonroofs, sliding rear windows, and it seems like no one wants to tow a trailer less than 30' long. The trailer or motorhome must, for some, have outside kitchens, dishwashers, washer and dryers, and 60' TV;s. A Ranger-based class C motorhome would not be accepted today.
My point is not that we have become overly concerned about pampering ourselves with comforting technology and features, although there is some truth to that. No, my point is that the expectations of consumers continue to grow with the physical weight of comfort-giving options on the truck and the towable camper/boat/toybox/5'er AND expect it to be handled by today's amazing technology. Posters on these forums, and the RV forums I follow, WANT to ignore payload and just pay attention to the advertised max towing capacity because they want their comforts, capacity, dependability, and low price all in one package. When they come to these forums for opinions about sway bars, air bags, re-gearing, they are looking for a magic nostrum to solve the symptoms of being overloaded. Any words towards reality, any explanation of how payload limits safe use of the truck or SUV or car, will get you labeled as the "weight police" and a snarky attitude in reply, as they don't want to hear the truth.
At that time a truck was a truck, and if you went on a date, to church, shopping to town, or to the local football game, you drove a car (mine was a Mustang). While I had a slide-in truck camper, the average towable camper at the time was probably a 18 foot Shasta. A lot of Datsun pickup or, Ford Courier pickup Class C mini-motorhomes were being manufactured and sold at the time, and consumers enjoyed them.
Today, purchasers want a lot more! Not just AC, carpeted floors, cruse control and power windows, but full entertainment and information systems, driver aide technologies, power running boards, massaging seats, leather interiors, tonneau covers, power moonroofs, sliding rear windows, and it seems like no one wants to tow a trailer less than 30' long. The trailer or motorhome must, for some, have outside kitchens, dishwashers, washer and dryers, and 60' TV;s. A Ranger-based class C motorhome would not be accepted today.
My point is not that we have become overly concerned about pampering ourselves with comforting technology and features, although there is some truth to that. No, my point is that the expectations of consumers continue to grow with the physical weight of comfort-giving options on the truck and the towable camper/boat/toybox/5'er AND expect it to be handled by today's amazing technology. Posters on these forums, and the RV forums I follow, WANT to ignore payload and just pay attention to the advertised max towing capacity because they want their comforts, capacity, dependability, and low price all in one package. When they come to these forums for opinions about sway bars, air bags, re-gearing, they are looking for a magic nostrum to solve the symptoms of being overloaded. Any words towards reality, any explanation of how payload limits safe use of the truck or SUV or car, will get you labeled as the "weight police" and a snarky attitude in reply, as they don't want to hear the truth.
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Gladehound (09-05-2018)
09-03-2018, 09:52 PM
#22
Oh really? Please post a link to the GCWR of my truck.
2018 Screw 145 4x4 3.5 EB 3.55 with 53B Hitch Option (Medium Duty Tow Package).
Also feel free to call Customer Service and ask them.
I didn't provide the VIN but it wouldnt do any good. Customer Service wil come back with 16100 GCWR.
This is incorrect. The dealer (at least the retail and parts department) will also be unable to help you.
Also be aware that you may interpret some of what you read to imply I have a 5000 Tow Rating also incorrect.
The Manual in foot notes says HD Tow Package required to tow over 5000 lb. If taken literally that limits Max Tow's to 5000 lbs. Of course foot notes also say 3.5 EB with Medium Duty Tow Package is rated at 7000 lb which directly contradicts HD Tow being required to tow over 5000 lb.
I will be waiting on the link to my GCWR or the page on which it can be found in my manual.
Further it would help if Ford would be consistent with the naming of packages. The Tow Package on the window sticker is the HD Tow Package in the manual and the Hitch Package is the Medium Duty Tow Package in the Manual. The Limited is listed as the 3.5 10.5CR despite the fact all 2017+ 3.5 EB are 10.5 CR.
2018 Screw 145 4x4 3.5 EB 3.55 with 53B Hitch Option (Medium Duty Tow Package).
Also feel free to call Customer Service and ask them.
I didn't provide the VIN but it wouldnt do any good. Customer Service wil come back with 16100 GCWR.
This is incorrect. The dealer (at least the retail and parts department) will also be unable to help you.
Also be aware that you may interpret some of what you read to imply I have a 5000 Tow Rating also incorrect.
The Manual in foot notes says HD Tow Package required to tow over 5000 lb. If taken literally that limits Max Tow's to 5000 lbs. Of course foot notes also say 3.5 EB with Medium Duty Tow Package is rated at 7000 lb which directly contradicts HD Tow being required to tow over 5000 lb.
I will be waiting on the link to my GCWR or the page on which it can be found in my manual.
Further it would help if Ford would be consistent with the naming of packages. The Tow Package on the window sticker is the HD Tow Package in the manual and the Hitch Package is the Medium Duty Tow Package in the Manual. The Limited is listed as the 3.5 10.5CR despite the fact all 2017+ 3.5 EB are 10.5 CR.
09-03-2018, 10:00 PM
#23
I actually would prefer that they put in an adequate cooling system and brakes and rate the chassis. Engine and Gear Ratio is just another option.
As a general rule in commercial vehicles the ratings don't change based on gear ratios or power.
Axle Ratios as a general rule only effect gradability in top gear and startabilty in low. Once trans ratios come into play it all goes out the window. Engine doesn't care whether your in 8th (0.85) x 3.08 or 10th (0.63) x 4.10 as the rpm and torque multiplication is essentially the same.
Power is simply speed. How fast do you want to go?
300 hp is adequate to move 80,000 lb although it won't pull hills real fast.The typical Class 8 Truck a few years ago made around 400 bhp. These days I suspect it's higher but not a lot higher.
PS You guys have no idea what options are. The spec sheet on some of my class 8's run 13 pages. I have no idea how many 1000's of options.are actually available in the order guide (and that doesn't even count special orders where you call and get an engineering number for desired special equipment) I set down to order a blue truck a few years ago and something like 300 blues alone. Of course again that doesn't count special order colors. The possibilities are endless.
As a general rule in commercial vehicles the ratings don't change based on gear ratios or power.
Axle Ratios as a general rule only effect gradability in top gear and startabilty in low. Once trans ratios come into play it all goes out the window. Engine doesn't care whether your in 8th (0.85) x 3.08 or 10th (0.63) x 4.10 as the rpm and torque multiplication is essentially the same.
Power is simply speed. How fast do you want to go?
300 hp is adequate to move 80,000 lb although it won't pull hills real fast.The typical Class 8 Truck a few years ago made around 400 bhp. These days I suspect it's higher but not a lot higher.
PS You guys have no idea what options are. The spec sheet on some of my class 8's run 13 pages. I have no idea how many 1000's of options.are actually available in the order guide (and that doesn't even count special orders where you call and get an engineering number for desired special equipment) I set down to order a blue truck a few years ago and something like 300 blues alone. Of course again that doesn't count special order colors. The possibilities are endless.
09-03-2018, 10:04 PM
#24
Senior Member
Oh really? Please post a link to the GCWR of my truck.
2018 Screw 145 4x4 3.5 EB 3.55 with 53B Hitch Option (Medium Duty Tow Package).
Also feel free to call Customer Service and ask them.
I didn't provide the VIN but it wouldnt do any good. Customer Service wil come back with 16100 GCWR.
This is incorrect. The dealer (at least the retail and parts department) will also be unable to help you.
Also be aware that you may interpret some of what you read to imply I have a 5000 Tow Rating also incorrect.
The Manual in foot notes says HD Tow Package required to tow over 5000 lb. If taken literally that limits Max Tow's to 5000 lbs. Of course foot notes also say 3.5 EB with Medium Duty Tow Package is rated at 7000 lb which directly contradicts HD Tow being required to tow over 5000 lb.
I will be waiting on the link to my GCWR or the page on which it can be found in my manual.
Further it would help if Ford would be consistent with the naming of packages. The Tow Package on the window sticker is the HD Tow Package in the manual and the Hitch Package is the Medium Duty Tow Package in the Manual. The Limited is listed as the 3.5 10.5CR despite the fact all 2017+ 3.5 EB are 10.5 CR.
2018 Screw 145 4x4 3.5 EB 3.55 with 53B Hitch Option (Medium Duty Tow Package).
Also feel free to call Customer Service and ask them.
I didn't provide the VIN but it wouldnt do any good. Customer Service wil come back with 16100 GCWR.
This is incorrect. The dealer (at least the retail and parts department) will also be unable to help you.
Also be aware that you may interpret some of what you read to imply I have a 5000 Tow Rating also incorrect.
The Manual in foot notes says HD Tow Package required to tow over 5000 lb. If taken literally that limits Max Tow's to 5000 lbs. Of course foot notes also say 3.5 EB with Medium Duty Tow Package is rated at 7000 lb which directly contradicts HD Tow being required to tow over 5000 lb.
I will be waiting on the link to my GCWR or the page on which it can be found in my manual.
Further it would help if Ford would be consistent with the naming of packages. The Tow Package on the window sticker is the HD Tow Package in the manual and the Hitch Package is the Medium Duty Tow Package in the Manual. The Limited is listed as the 3.5 10.5CR despite the fact all 2017+ 3.5 EB are 10.5 CR.
09-03-2018, 10:10 PM
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Camano Island, Washington
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While I started driving pickup trucks around the farm in about 1967, the first truck I purchased new was a 1974 International Harvester 3/4 ton 4x4 with the 345 V8, single-cab 8' bed (the last year IHC pickups were made, excepting the Scout Terra). That thing was geared low and ready to work. It was a " luxury" truck, as it had a fabric bench seat, AM radio, and sliding rear window. No AC or power windows and vinyl floor.. Two-speed New Process transfer case but automatic-locking hubs. I added larger mirrors, in-dash CB radio, 12" x 16.5" 10-ply tires, and overload springs. I pulled a 14' gooseneck dump grain trailer, but also had and swapped between a slide-in 10' livestock rack for cattle and hogs, , a tall aluminum topper (for delivering seed corn to the field and keeping it dry and safe), and a 8' slide-in camper. Rubber bed mats didn't exist so I cut plywood to fit on either side of the binkley hitch plate to make it easier to scoop ground livestock feed out of the bed without scratching the bed and making a level place to use the scoop shovel or sweep out firewood debris.
At that time a truck was a truck, and if you went on a date, to church, shopping to town, or to the local football game, you drove a car (mine was a Mustang). While I had a slide-in truck camper, the average towable camper at the time was probably a 18 foot Shasta. A lot of Datsun pickup or, Ford Courier pickup Class C mini-motorhomes were being manufactured and sold at the time, and consumers enjoyed them.
Today, purchasers want a lot more! Not just AC, carpeted floors, cruse control and power windows, but full entertainment and information systems, driver aide technologies, power running boards, massaging seats, leather interiors, tonneau covers, power moonroofs, sliding rear windows, and it seems like no one wants to tow a trailer less than 30' long. The trailer or motorhome must, for some, have outside kitchens, dishwashers, washer and dryers, and 60' TV;s. A Ranger-based class C motorhome would not be accepted today.
My point is not that we have become overly concerned about pampering ourselves with comforting technology and features, although there is some truth to that. No, my point is that the expectations of consumers continue to grow with the physical weight of comfort-giving options on the truck and the towable camper/boat/toybox/5'er AND expect it to be handled by today's amazing technology. Posters on these forums, and the RV forums I follow, WANT to ignore payload and just pay attention to the advertised max towing capacity because they want their comforts, capacity, dependability, and low price all in one package. When they come to these forums for opinions about sway bars, air bags, re-gearing, they are looking for a magic nostrum to solve the symptoms of being overloaded. Any words towards reality, any explanation of how payload limits safe use of the truck or SUV or car, will get you labeled as the "weight police" and a snarky attitude in reply, as they don't want to hear the truth.
At that time a truck was a truck, and if you went on a date, to church, shopping to town, or to the local football game, you drove a car (mine was a Mustang). While I had a slide-in truck camper, the average towable camper at the time was probably a 18 foot Shasta. A lot of Datsun pickup or, Ford Courier pickup Class C mini-motorhomes were being manufactured and sold at the time, and consumers enjoyed them.
Today, purchasers want a lot more! Not just AC, carpeted floors, cruse control and power windows, but full entertainment and information systems, driver aide technologies, power running boards, massaging seats, leather interiors, tonneau covers, power moonroofs, sliding rear windows, and it seems like no one wants to tow a trailer less than 30' long. The trailer or motorhome must, for some, have outside kitchens, dishwashers, washer and dryers, and 60' TV;s. A Ranger-based class C motorhome would not be accepted today.
My point is not that we have become overly concerned about pampering ourselves with comforting technology and features, although there is some truth to that. No, my point is that the expectations of consumers continue to grow with the physical weight of comfort-giving options on the truck and the towable camper/boat/toybox/5'er AND expect it to be handled by today's amazing technology. Posters on these forums, and the RV forums I follow, WANT to ignore payload and just pay attention to the advertised max towing capacity because they want their comforts, capacity, dependability, and low price all in one package. When they come to these forums for opinions about sway bars, air bags, re-gearing, they are looking for a magic nostrum to solve the symptoms of being overloaded. Any words towards reality, any explanation of how payload limits safe use of the truck or SUV or car, will get you labeled as the "weight police" and a snarky attitude in reply, as they don't want to hear the truth.
09-04-2018, 12:21 AM
#27
Oh really? Please post a link to the GCWR of my truck.
2018 Screw 145 4x4 3.5 EB 3.55 with 53B Hitch Option (Medium Duty Tow Package).
Also feel free to call Customer Service and ask them.
I didn't provide the VIN but it wouldnt do any good. Customer Service wil come back with 16100 GCWR.
This is incorrect. The dealer (at least the retail and parts department) will also be unable to help you.
Also be aware that you may interpret some of what you read to imply I have a 5000 Tow Rating also incorrect.
The Manual in foot notes says HD Tow Package required to tow over 5000 lb. If taken literally that limits Max Tow's to 5000 lbs. Of course foot notes also say 3.5 EB with Medium Duty Tow Package is rated at 7000 lb which directly contradicts HD Tow being required to tow over 5000 lb.
I will be waiting on the link to my GCWR or the page on which it can be found in my manual.
Further it would help if Ford would be consistent with the naming of packages. The Tow Package on the window sticker is the HD Tow Package in the manual and the Hitch Package is the Medium Duty Tow Package in the Manual. The Limited is listed as the 3.5 10.5CR despite the fact all 2017+ 3.5 EB are 10.5 CR.
2018 Screw 145 4x4 3.5 EB 3.55 with 53B Hitch Option (Medium Duty Tow Package).
Also feel free to call Customer Service and ask them.
I didn't provide the VIN but it wouldnt do any good. Customer Service wil come back with 16100 GCWR.
This is incorrect. The dealer (at least the retail and parts department) will also be unable to help you.
Also be aware that you may interpret some of what you read to imply I have a 5000 Tow Rating also incorrect.
The Manual in foot notes says HD Tow Package required to tow over 5000 lb. If taken literally that limits Max Tow's to 5000 lbs. Of course foot notes also say 3.5 EB with Medium Duty Tow Package is rated at 7000 lb which directly contradicts HD Tow being required to tow over 5000 lb.
I will be waiting on the link to my GCWR or the page on which it can be found in my manual.
Further it would help if Ford would be consistent with the naming of packages. The Tow Package on the window sticker is the HD Tow Package in the manual and the Hitch Package is the Medium Duty Tow Package in the Manual. The Limited is listed as the 3.5 10.5CR despite the fact all 2017+ 3.5 EB are 10.5 CR.
Page 18 of the guide will show you your GCWR, which doesn't really matter since you'll probably run out of payload first.
Why are you making it so complicated? You're basically just pissing everyone off with frustration from your ranting that doens't really make sense.
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GossipIsBad (09-12-2018)
09-04-2018, 12:53 AM
#28
generalized numbskull
Bought my first truck last week. I asked my salesman for my 18 3.5eb screw xlt with 7k gvwr (with window sticker Tow package) he said to check ford pass. I called Ford customer service they couldn't figure it out and said to ask the salesman. Ford Pass linked to the towing guide. Where my truck has several different weights listed based on packages, tires and trim. So I can either tow 7000 lbs or I can tow 10700. Also the hitch says 11k with WD. Which is still 2500 less than the first sales guy I talked to said that it would tow. I am praying its the 10700 with the wd hitch because 7k isn't going to cut it unless I don't put a single thing in my TT.
Unless your a pro its not easy finding the information out and not only are the sales and customer service people ignorant they will lie about being ignorant.
You guys who have been doing it for decades and purchased trucks for these purposes talking about its so easy... 1. please place your condescending attitudes up your tailpipe. 2. be helpful, maybe if you were people like me wouldn't have to work so hard to figure it out.
Atleast the payload is easy to read on the truck sticker " 1800 lbs" although the manual shows 2050. lol
Unless your a pro its not easy finding the information out and not only are the sales and customer service people ignorant they will lie about being ignorant.
You guys who have been doing it for decades and purchased trucks for these purposes talking about its so easy... 1. please place your condescending attitudes up your tailpipe. 2. be helpful, maybe if you were people like me wouldn't have to work so hard to figure it out.
Atleast the payload is easy to read on the truck sticker " 1800 lbs" although the manual shows 2050. lol
09-04-2018, 06:25 AM
#29
Senior Member
Bought my first truck last week. I asked my salesman for my 18 3.5eb screw xlt with 7k gvwr (with window sticker Tow package) he said to check ford pass. I called Ford customer service they couldn't figure it out and said to ask the salesman. Ford Pass linked to the towing guide. Where my truck has several different weights listed based on packages, tires and trim. So I can either tow 7000 lbs or I can tow 10700. Also the hitch says 11k with WD. Which is still 2500 less than the first sales guy I talked to said that it would tow. I am praying its the 10700 with the wd hitch because 7k isn't going to cut it unless I don't put a single thing in my TT.
Unless your a pro its not easy finding the information out and not only are the sales and customer service people ignorant they will lie about being ignorant.
You guys who have been doing it for decades and purchased trucks for these purposes talking about its so easy... 1. please place your condescending attitudes up your tailpipe. 2. be helpful, maybe if you were people like me wouldn't have to work so hard to figure it out.
Atleast the payload is easy to read on the truck sticker " 1800 lbs" although the manual shows 2050. lol
Unless your a pro its not easy finding the information out and not only are the sales and customer service people ignorant they will lie about being ignorant.
You guys who have been doing it for decades and purchased trucks for these purposes talking about its so easy... 1. please place your condescending attitudes up your tailpipe. 2. be helpful, maybe if you were people like me wouldn't have to work so hard to figure it out.
Atleast the payload is easy to read on the truck sticker " 1800 lbs" although the manual shows 2050. lol
10,700 pounds of loaded trailer at 13% tongue weight is 1,391 pouunds. Subtract that from your 1,800 and you have 409 pounds left... But the 1,391 of tongue weight likely exceeds the max printed on that hitch.
So 10,700 pounds is highly unlikely.
09-04-2018, 08:10 AM
#30
generalized numbskull
10,700 is only going to happen if you limit the weight of people, pets, their stuff, and mods to the truck to 409 pounds. Check that, because your weight distribution hitch will weigh 75 - 100 pounds.
10,700 pounds of loaded trailer at 13% tongue weight is 1,391 pouunds. Subtract that from your 1,800 and you have 409 pounds left... But the 1,391 of tongue weight likely exceeds the max printed on that hitch.
So 10,700 pounds is highly unlikely.
10,700 pounds of loaded trailer at 13% tongue weight is 1,391 pouunds. Subtract that from your 1,800 and you have 409 pounds left... But the 1,391 of tongue weight likely exceeds the max printed on that hitch.
So 10,700 pounds is highly unlikely.