Payload - Why is this Concept Difficult
09-03-2018, 08:17 AM
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Now that I think about it, the biggest issue is likely the public perception that a trailer is towed not hauled. Weight transfer never even enters the thought process.
The truck manufacturer is in quandry. If they rate the truck as J2807 requires (10% Tongue, 300 lb passengers, 33% Options Penetration, etc) it's going to overstate tow capacity for people with $40,000 worth of options, 400 lb of accessories and 1000 lb worth of people in the truck and a 15% Tongue. If J2807 is changed to reflect worse case then you are going to unduly limit the tow rating for one guy in a limited option truck with a cargo trailer with 10% tongue.
In my opinion the fix would be post curb (with a slight tolerance allowance), GVWR and GCWR on the window sticker and make the same numbers readily available by simply inputting a VIN on Ford's Site. Then simply forgo a tow rating. That way no one gets mislead or short changed. Commercial Vehicles manage with a GVWR, GCWR, Shipping Weight (Curb would be easier for public to understand) and no Tow Rating. Don't see why lighter vehicles couldn't.
But good luck explaining GCWR is total GVWR with Trailer to general public! Most still haven't figured out GVWR as they seem to think that's curb.
The truck manufacturer is in quandry. If they rate the truck as J2807 requires (10% Tongue, 300 lb passengers, 33% Options Penetration, etc) it's going to overstate tow capacity for people with $40,000 worth of options, 400 lb of accessories and 1000 lb worth of people in the truck and a 15% Tongue. If J2807 is changed to reflect worse case then you are going to unduly limit the tow rating for one guy in a limited option truck with a cargo trailer with 10% tongue.
In my opinion the fix would be post curb (with a slight tolerance allowance), GVWR and GCWR on the window sticker and make the same numbers readily available by simply inputting a VIN on Ford's Site. Then simply forgo a tow rating. That way no one gets mislead or short changed. Commercial Vehicles manage with a GVWR, GCWR, Shipping Weight (Curb would be easier for public to understand) and no Tow Rating. Don't see why lighter vehicles couldn't.
But good luck explaining GCWR is total GVWR with Trailer to general public! Most still haven't figured out GVWR as they seem to think that's curb.
Last edited by Gene K; 09-03-2018 at 08:27 AM.
09-03-2018, 08:36 AM
#12
They've had payload commercials off & on since the '80s.
Also, 20+ years ago, the vast majority people who bought trucks did not buy them as family vehicles, and were more in tune with real world truck use as far as hauling/towing goes.
Also, 20+ years ago, the vast majority people who bought trucks did not buy them as family vehicles, and were more in tune with real world truck use as far as hauling/towing goes.
09-03-2018, 04:43 PM
#13
Now that I think about it, the biggest issue is likely the public perception that a trailer is towed not hauled. Weight transfer never even enters the thought process.
The truck manufacturer is in quandry. If they rate the truck as J2807 requires (10% Tongue, 300 lb passengers, 33% Options Penetration, etc) it's going to overstate tow capacity for people with $40,000 worth of options, 400 lb of accessories and 1000 lb worth of people in the truck and a 15% Tongue. If J2807 is changed to reflect worse case then you are going to unduly limit the tow rating for one guy in a limited option truck with a cargo trailer with 10% tongue.
In my opinion the fix would be post curb (with a slight tolerance allowance), GVWR and GCWR on the window sticker and make the same numbers readily available by simply inputting a VIN on Ford's Site. Then simply forgo a tow rating. That way no one gets mislead or short changed. Commercial Vehicles manage with a GVWR, GCWR, Shipping Weight (Curb would be easier for public to understand) and no Tow Rating. Don't see why lighter vehicles couldn't.
But good luck explaining GCWR is total GVWR with Trailer to general public! Most still haven't figured out GVWR as they seem to think that's curb.
The truck manufacturer is in quandry. If they rate the truck as J2807 requires (10% Tongue, 300 lb passengers, 33% Options Penetration, etc) it's going to overstate tow capacity for people with $40,000 worth of options, 400 lb of accessories and 1000 lb worth of people in the truck and a 15% Tongue. If J2807 is changed to reflect worse case then you are going to unduly limit the tow rating for one guy in a limited option truck with a cargo trailer with 10% tongue.
In my opinion the fix would be post curb (with a slight tolerance allowance), GVWR and GCWR on the window sticker and make the same numbers readily available by simply inputting a VIN on Ford's Site. Then simply forgo a tow rating. That way no one gets mislead or short changed. Commercial Vehicles manage with a GVWR, GCWR, Shipping Weight (Curb would be easier for public to understand) and no Tow Rating. Don't see why lighter vehicles couldn't.
But good luck explaining GCWR is total GVWR with Trailer to general public! Most still haven't figured out GVWR as they seem to think that's curb.
09-03-2018, 05:28 PM
#14
Or google it...
https://www.ford.com/services/assets...-150&year=2018
Its NOT Rocket Science!
I find the threads on towing and payload and tires and so one comical -
All you need is a half an ounce of common sense!
09-03-2018, 05:41 PM
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Camano Island, Washington
Posts: 397
Likes: 0
Received 113 Likes
on
86 Posts
Its listed in owners manual...
Or google it...
https://www.ford.com/services/assets...-150&year=2018
Its NOT Rocket Science!
I find the threads on towing and payload and tires and so one comical -
All you need is a half an ounce of common sense!
Or google it...
https://www.ford.com/services/assets...-150&year=2018
Its NOT Rocket Science!
I find the threads on towing and payload and tires and so one comical -
All you need is a half an ounce of common sense!
And even fewer have even opened the owners manual.
I'm a moderator on a RV forum and I'm constantly stunned at the lack of common sense and knowledge of the general public.
09-03-2018, 05:51 PM
#16
Its like no one has any ability to figure anything out on their own.
09-03-2018, 06:22 PM
#17
What throws a lot off is the posted GCWR in the towing guides. My truck has XXX WB, (Insert cab), and 3.xx gearing and says I can tow xx,xxx amount. What you won't find listed is exactly what truck/trim it relates to. What it really is saying is that a base XL with Screw, 157" WB, 3.5EB with Max Tow can tow this amount, but all the other trims of the same cab and length cannot. They are all reduced to what ever payload is left over. The ads are very deceiving. Sure it's in the fine print, which flashes on the screen and is gone before your eyes can even focus on the words.
The one thing that I think every dealer should put up in pictures is the payload tag. Those who are shopping for a tow vehicle, the first thing they should be looking for is that tag. It would be very helpful if the payload was indeed listed on the window sticker. No two trucks are alike when it comes to payload. I looked at two identically optioned Platinums, one was 3.5 the other 5.0, one had max tow, the other the tow package and 36 gallon tank. Since the 701a included the ITBC, both trucks were optioned as identical as they could be, yet the 3.5 had 58 pounds more payload. One would think that a RWD Plat with 3.5 and Max Tow would have more payload than a 4WD 3.5 EB, Max Tow and moonroof, but nope.
The GVWR are all over the place. My 14 had a 7100 GVWR, my 18 has a 6750 GVWR. Both are RWD, 145" Screw. There is a 300 pound GVWR difference between RWD and 4WD in the 15+. It's enough to make you just say screw it and buy a 1 ton and be done.
The one thing that I think every dealer should put up in pictures is the payload tag. Those who are shopping for a tow vehicle, the first thing they should be looking for is that tag. It would be very helpful if the payload was indeed listed on the window sticker. No two trucks are alike when it comes to payload. I looked at two identically optioned Platinums, one was 3.5 the other 5.0, one had max tow, the other the tow package and 36 gallon tank. Since the 701a included the ITBC, both trucks were optioned as identical as they could be, yet the 3.5 had 58 pounds more payload. One would think that a RWD Plat with 3.5 and Max Tow would have more payload than a 4WD 3.5 EB, Max Tow and moonroof, but nope.
The GVWR are all over the place. My 14 had a 7100 GVWR, my 18 has a 6750 GVWR. Both are RWD, 145" Screw. There is a 300 pound GVWR difference between RWD and 4WD in the 15+. It's enough to make you just say screw it and buy a 1 ton and be done.
09-03-2018, 07:35 PM
#18
What throws a lot off is the posted GCWR in the towing guides. My truck has XXX WB, (Insert cab), and 3.xx gearing and says I can tow xx,xxx amount. What you won't find listed is exactly what truck/trim it relates to. What it really is saying is that a base XL with Screw, 157" WB, 3.5EB with Max Tow can tow this amount, but all the other trims of the same cab and length cannot. They are all reduced to what ever payload is left over. The ads are very deceiving. Sure it's in the fine print, which flashes on the screen and is gone before your eyes can even focus on the words.
The one thing that I think every dealer should put up in pictures is the payload tag. Those who are shopping for a tow vehicle, the first thing they should be looking for is that tag. It would be very helpful if the payload was indeed listed on the window sticker. No two trucks are alike when it comes to payload. I looked at two identically optioned Platinums, one was 3.5 the other 5.0, one had max tow, the other the tow package and 36 gallon tank. Since the 701a included the ITBC, both trucks were optioned as identical as they could be, yet the 3.5 had 58 pounds more payload. One would think that a RWD Plat with 3.5 and Max Tow would have more payload than a 4WD 3.5 EB, Max Tow and moonroof, but nope.
The GVWR are all over the place. My 14 had a 7100 GVWR, my 18 has a 6750 GVWR. Both are RWD, 145" Screw. There is a 300 pound GVWR difference between RWD and 4WD in the 15+. It's enough to make you just say screw it and buy a 1 ton and be done.
The one thing that I think every dealer should put up in pictures is the payload tag. Those who are shopping for a tow vehicle, the first thing they should be looking for is that tag. It would be very helpful if the payload was indeed listed on the window sticker. No two trucks are alike when it comes to payload. I looked at two identically optioned Platinums, one was 3.5 the other 5.0, one had max tow, the other the tow package and 36 gallon tank. Since the 701a included the ITBC, both trucks were optioned as identical as they could be, yet the 3.5 had 58 pounds more payload. One would think that a RWD Plat with 3.5 and Max Tow would have more payload than a 4WD 3.5 EB, Max Tow and moonroof, but nope.
The GVWR are all over the place. My 14 had a 7100 GVWR, my 18 has a 6750 GVWR. Both are RWD, 145" Screw. There is a 300 pound GVWR difference between RWD and 4WD in the 15+. It's enough to make you just say screw it and buy a 1 ton and be done.
I truly wish they would go back to how the late 90s and early 2000s trucks were done. Tow package trucks(no max tow available then, either tow or no tow) included the hitch, only two gear ratio options, and all the heavy duty cooling set ups for engine, and transmission, along with the payload package to get the heavy duty springs, it default selected your tire and wheel package or limited it to only a couple choices. It was very simple. You selected tow package and the rear end desired period along maybe a wheel design.
I ordered trucks in 92, 95, 97, 98, 01, a van in 95, explorers a few times and one of the first 2wd expeditions ford built. I purchased off the lot several others. All the trucks/suvs/vans took less than 15 minutes to order as once the tow package and engine choices were made if was down to cosmetics. They only had gvwr stickers and tables in the manual by axle ratio/cab/4x4 or 4x2 config, back then it was up to you to weigh the truck and trailer as towed. It was pretty simple dont bust the axle, gvwr or gcwr and you were good, same as now, but now ford gives you extra info to make it easier, and more options to take the payload away lol!
09-03-2018, 08:38 PM
#19
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I truly wish they would go back to how the late 90s and early 2000s trucks were done. Tow package trucks(no max tow available then, either tow or no tow) included the hitch, only two gear ratio options, and all the heavy duty cooling set ups for engine, and transmission, along with the payload package to get the heavy duty springs, it default selected your tire and wheel package or limited it to only a couple choices. It was very simple. You selected tow package and the rear end desired period along maybe a wheel design.
I ordered trucks in 92, 95, 97, 98, 01, a van in 95, explorers a few times and one of the first 2wd expeditions ford built. I purchased off the lot several others. All the trucks/suvs/vans took less than 15 minutes to order as once the tow package and engine choices were made if was down to cosmetics. They only had gvwr stickers and tables in the manual by axle ratio/cab/4x4 or 4x2 config, back then it was up to you to weigh the truck and trailer as towed. It was pretty simple dont bust the axle, gvwr or gcwr and you were good, same as now, but now ford gives you extra info to make it easier, and more options to take the payload away lol!
I ordered trucks in 92, 95, 97, 98, 01, a van in 95, explorers a few times and one of the first 2wd expeditions ford built. I purchased off the lot several others. All the trucks/suvs/vans took less than 15 minutes to order as once the tow package and engine choices were made if was down to cosmetics. They only had gvwr stickers and tables in the manual by axle ratio/cab/4x4 or 4x2 config, back then it was up to you to weigh the truck and trailer as towed. It was pretty simple dont bust the axle, gvwr or gcwr and you were good, same as now, but now ford gives you extra info to make it easier, and more options to take the payload away lol!
As a general rule in commercial vehicles the ratings don't change based on gear ratios or power.
Axle Ratios as a general rule only effect gradability in top gear and startabilty in low. Once trans ratios come into play it all goes out the window. Engine doesn't care whether your in 8th (0.85) x 3.08 or 10th (0.63) x 4.10 as the rpm and torque multiplication is essentially the same.
Power is simply speed. How fast do you want to go?
300 hp is adequate to move 80,000 lb although it won't pull hills real fast.The typical Class 8 Truck a few years ago made around 400 bhp. These days I suspect it's higher but not a lot higher.
PS You guys have no idea what options are. The spec sheet on some of my class 8's run 13 pages. I have no idea how many 1000's of options.are actually available in the order guide (and that doesn't even count special orders where you call and get an engineering number for desired special equipment) I set down to order a blue truck a few years ago and something like 300 blues alone. Of course again that doesn't count special order colors. The possibilities are endless.
09-03-2018, 09:03 PM
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Its listed in owners manual...
Or google it...
https://www.ford.com/services/assets...-150&year=2018
Its NOT Rocket Science!
I find the threads on towing and payload and tires and so one comical -
All you need is a half an ounce of common sense!
Or google it...
https://www.ford.com/services/assets...-150&year=2018
Its NOT Rocket Science!
I find the threads on towing and payload and tires and so one comical -
All you need is a half an ounce of common sense!
2018 Screw 145 4x4 3.5 EB 3.55 with 53B Hitch Option (Medium Duty Tow Package).
Also feel free to call Customer Service and ask them.
I didn't provide the VIN but it wouldnt do any good. Customer Service wil come back with 16100 GCWR.
This is incorrect. The dealer (at least the retail and parts department) will also be unable to help you.
Also be aware that you may interpret some of what you read to imply I have a 5000 Tow Rating also incorrect.
The Manual in foot notes says HD Tow Package required to tow over 5000 lb. If taken literally that limits Max Tow's to 5000 lbs. Of course foot notes also say 3.5 EB with Medium Duty Tow Package is rated at 7000 lb which directly contradicts HD Tow being required to tow over 5000 lb.
I will be waiting on the link to my GCWR or the page on which it can be found in my manual.
Further it would help if Ford would be consistent with the naming of packages. The Tow Package on the window sticker is the HD Tow Package in the manual and the Hitch Package is the Medium Duty Tow Package in the Manual. The Limited is listed as the 3.5 10.5CR despite the fact all 2017+ 3.5 EB are 10.5 CR.