Regular vs. premium gas for Ecoboost
10-22-2013, 05:30 PM
#81
It's runs optimally on 91, plain and simple.
Or you could type another 1000 words and not disprove that simple fact.
10-22-2013, 05:57 PM
#82
Where of I start, higher octane adds power on the EB, which does not require it, So wrongo there. (I fully comprehend why, I'm just pointing out the contradictory statement) It runs optimally on 91, what does that say? It's design is optimized for it, it's tuning covers for that fact with 87. otherwise no power gain, just like you said!!
I never said that Ford did not design it to run on both, you are just back-pedalling on that. It's design was OPTIMIZED to run on 91. You agree with that yet state I am wrong. You just obfuscating here, I think the point is clear.
And "Ecoboost" is a marketing name, not an engineering title.
Looks like you bought Ford's PR hook, line, and sinker.
Sure it gets peak power on higher octane. Nobody disputes that.
What we take issue with is the term "designed for". It is designed to take any grade gas available and optimize power for that gas.
Designed for and designed to take advantage of are not necessarily equivalent. Designed for implies a binary either/or. This is not such a situation.
Last edited by packplantpath; 10-22-2013 at 06:02 PM.
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OddBall (10-22-2013)
10-22-2013, 06:05 PM
#83
Works both ways.
Last edited by packplantpath; 10-22-2013 at 06:39 PM.
10-22-2013, 07:01 PM
#84
Senior Member
Sorry about the wordy responses. Next time I'll try to use fewer words so your attention span isn't threatened.
Here's the final word from me on this subject. You, and others can't be bothered to read and comprehend so I'll let Ford do it for me. I put it in big bold letters so you could understand.
And a link to go along with it:
F150 owners manual, 3rd printing, pg 405
3.5L V6 EcoBoost engine
“Regular” unleaded gasoline with a pump (R+M)/2 octane rating of 87 is
recommended. Some stations offer fuels posted as “Regular” with an
octane rating below 87, particularly in high altitude areas. Fuels with
octane levels below 87 are not recommended. Premium fuel will provide
improved performance and is recommended for severe duty usage such
as trailer tow.
Do not be concerned if your engine
sometimes knocks lightly. However,
if it knocks heavily while you are
using fuel with the recommended
octane rating, see your authorized
dealer to prevent any engine damage.
Last edited by OddBall; 10-22-2013 at 07:34 PM.
10-22-2013, 07:16 PM
#85
Inebriated 4 ur safety
Without adaptive timing, it would either not make full power on 87 octane, or not run on correctly with a tune designed to extract max power from the design, again on 87. I don't care how many folks pile on, that is simple proof the engine is DESIGNED for 91, and CAN run 87. On an optimized no adpative tune, it will perform best and make the most power on 91.
So basically what you are saying is that all the engines in the F150s current line up were designed for premium since they all have improved performance on premium going by the owners manual? Not only that, but all modern engines that run both were designed for premium mechanically? Is this what you are saying? That the EB 3.5L that mechanically came from the Duratec 3.5L was design for premium mechanically?
Hmm, lets look into that. The Duratec 3.5L was put into production cars since 2007. There are two versions of the Duratec 3.5L, the new and old. The old version which was from 2007-2010 did not have Ti-VCT, and the new version from 2011+ had Ti-VCT which was the only difference from the old. With the old version (which the Ecoboost engine is mechanically derived) ran on 87 octane only with no improvement in power with higher octanes even in premium Lincoln models. The new version with Ti-VCT was able to adjust timing to optimize itself for different octane fuels. The same goes for the Duratec 3.7L which is the engine in your truck. Before 2011, it ran on 87 fuel and 91 octane did nothing for perfomance. After 2011, it had different power rating for both because of the added Ti-VCT to the engine. Mechanically, nothing else was changed.
Last edited by Al Kohalic; 10-23-2013 at 01:26 PM.
10-24-2013, 10:11 PM
#86
Great debate about adaptive timing and power increase when using premium!! I wonder if my custom 87 tune will perform better also on 91. How close in hp would my 87 tune be on 91 to my 91 tune on 91????? I asked this question to Mike at 5 star when I purchased my tuner from him and never got an answer.
10-27-2013, 02:41 PM
#87
10-27-2013, 03:05 PM
#88
but it has adaptive timing so that it a moot point. Okay, I get one you are saying. (I think) But your way of thinking about is still not correct. The octane rating of a gasoline is the measure of the anti-knock quality of the fuel. Higher octane does not add power to engines that do not require it. All higher octane fuels do is reduce the tendency for the engine to knock especially under load. If you put 87 octane in an engine designed for 91 octane without VCT(Variable Cam Timing), then that engine will start to knock really badly especially under load causing engine performance issues. If you put 91 octane in a engine designed for 87 without VCT, then all you did is waste your money because it did nothing. In short, it is the VCTs ability to adjust the engine for the octane grade of fuel that is in it that adds power. The same goes for your VCT 3.7L and the VCT 5.0L.
The fact is that Ford designed it to run on both and NOT just one. You can't say "well if it didn't have this technology in it then....." because if that were the case then it would not be an Ecoboost. What Ecoboost is, as Ford puts it, is the combination of multiple technologies put together. Take one away, and it's not an Ecoboost anymore.
Ford EcoBoost Engine Presentation - YouTube
No one ever said that the engine didn't have the adaptive ability to run on any gasoline fuel from 87-93. That said, the simple fact that many people have had trouble running on 87 says that the adaptive technology does not work for all ecoBoost motors under all conditions, these adaptions are many and complex, all these adaptions reduce power and torque.
The statement was that the basic underlying design was that of a premium fuel engine and it is. That the basic underlying design would require premium fuel and it does. That maximum performance would be using premium fuel, and Ford agrees. All true.
Conclusion, it is understandable that some people have trouble with regular fuel. It is understandable that maximum performance is with premium fuel. It is understandable that adaptive technology is required to run with regular fuel. It is understandable that the adaptivre technology does not always work on all ecoBoost motors under all circumstances for all people. No two of these motors are exactly the same. They are mass produced and have variable behavior. Not all will function optimally. Almost all will function to their individual optimums on premium fuel (according to Ford).
That does in no way mean what you argue against, that premium fuel is required or even suggested. No one is ever required to run premium fuel. If you are running on regular and having trouble a fix might be available by upping the octane and it is easy to understand why that fix would work. If you are in need of optimum performance do to rigirous load or towing requirements, you might do better with premium fuel and that would be understandable. If you are not having problems and do not need optimum performance you will probably operate more economically with regular fuel. If you want to drag race, you might do better with premium fuel, and would be easy to understand.
If you have trouble understanding breaking down the understanding of different componets and functions of modern motors into their underlying basic components and the physics, chemistry, and engineering of those components what can I say. If you can only understand the net overall integrated behavior then you will not be able to understand how the system functions, fails to function, or it's optimum performance conditions.
10-27-2013, 03:11 PM
#89
Inebriated 4 ur safety
No one ever said that the engine didn't have the adaptive ability to run on any gasoline fuel from 87-93. That said, the simple fact that many people have had trouble running on 87 says that the adaptive technology does not work for all ecoBoost motors under all conditions, these adaptions are many and complex, all these adaptions reduce power and torque.
The statement was that the basic underlying design was that of a premium fuel engine and it is. That the basic underlying design would require premium fuel and it does. That maximum performance would be using premium fuel, and Ford agrees. All true.
Conclusion, it is understandable that some people have trouble with regular fuel. It is understandable that maximum performance is with premium fuel. It is understandable that adaptive technology is required to run with regular fuel. It is understandable that the adaptivre technology does not always work on all ecoBoost motors under all circumstances for all people. No two of these motors are exactly the same. They are mass produced and have variable behavior. Not all will function optimally. Almost all will function to their individual optimums on premium fuel (according to Ford).
That does in no way mean what you argue against, that premium fuel is required or even suggested. No one is ever required to run premium fuel. If you are running on regular and having trouble a fix might be available by upping the octane and it is easy to understand why that fix would work. If you are in need of optimum performance do to rigirous load or towing requirements, you might do better with premium fuel and that would be understandable. If you are not having problems and do not need optimum performance you will probably operate more economically with regular fuel. If you want to drag race, you might do better with premium fuel, and would be easy to understand.
If you have trouble understanding breaking down the understanding of different componets and functions of modern motors into their underlying basic components and the physics, chemistry, and engineering of those components what can I say. If you can only understand the net overall integrated behavior then you will not be able to understand how the system functions, fails to function, or it's optimum performance conditions.
The statement was that the basic underlying design was that of a premium fuel engine and it is. That the basic underlying design would require premium fuel and it does. That maximum performance would be using premium fuel, and Ford agrees. All true.
Conclusion, it is understandable that some people have trouble with regular fuel. It is understandable that maximum performance is with premium fuel. It is understandable that adaptive technology is required to run with regular fuel. It is understandable that the adaptivre technology does not always work on all ecoBoost motors under all circumstances for all people. No two of these motors are exactly the same. They are mass produced and have variable behavior. Not all will function optimally. Almost all will function to their individual optimums on premium fuel (according to Ford).
That does in no way mean what you argue against, that premium fuel is required or even suggested. No one is ever required to run premium fuel. If you are running on regular and having trouble a fix might be available by upping the octane and it is easy to understand why that fix would work. If you are in need of optimum performance do to rigirous load or towing requirements, you might do better with premium fuel and that would be understandable. If you are not having problems and do not need optimum performance you will probably operate more economically with regular fuel. If you want to drag race, you might do better with premium fuel, and would be easy to understand.
If you have trouble understanding breaking down the understanding of different componets and functions of modern motors into their underlying basic components and the physics, chemistry, and engineering of those components what can I say. If you can only understand the net overall integrated behavior then you will not be able to understand how the system functions, fails to function, or it's optimum performance conditions.
Dude, just give it up. I am tired of explaining it.
10-27-2013, 03:42 PM
#90
So let me understand this. You are saying that because the Ecoboost has greater power on 91 octane, that it was design for 91 octane but de-tuned to run 87 octane. So in turn, every engine that has better performance on premium fuel was actually designed to run on premium.
So basically what you are saying is that all the engines in the F150s current line up were designed for premium since they all have improved performance on premium going by the owners manual? Not only that, but all modern engines that run both were designed for premium mechanically? Is this what you are saying? That the EB 3.5L that mechanically came from the Duratec 3.5L was design for premium mechanically?
Hmm, lets look into that. The Duratec 3.5L was put into production cars since 2007. There are two versions of the Duratec 3.5L, the new and old. The old version which was from 2007-2010 did not have Ti-VCT, and the new version from 2011+ had Ti-VCT which was the only difference from the old. With the old version (which the Ecoboost engine is mechanically derived) ran on 87 octane only with no improvement in power with higher octanes even in premium Lincoln models. The new version with Ti-VCT was able to adjust timing to optimize itself for different octane fuels. The same goes for the Duratec 3.7L which is the engine in your truck. Before 2011, it ran on 87 fuel and 91 octane did nothing for perfomance. After 2011, it had different power rating for both because of the added Ti-VCT to the engine. Mechanically, nothing else was changed.
So basically what you are saying is that all the engines in the F150s current line up were designed for premium since they all have improved performance on premium going by the owners manual? Not only that, but all modern engines that run both were designed for premium mechanically? Is this what you are saying? That the EB 3.5L that mechanically came from the Duratec 3.5L was design for premium mechanically?
Hmm, lets look into that. The Duratec 3.5L was put into production cars since 2007. There are two versions of the Duratec 3.5L, the new and old. The old version which was from 2007-2010 did not have Ti-VCT, and the new version from 2011+ had Ti-VCT which was the only difference from the old. With the old version (which the Ecoboost engine is mechanically derived) ran on 87 octane only with no improvement in power with higher octanes even in premium Lincoln models. The new version with Ti-VCT was able to adjust timing to optimize itself for different octane fuels. The same goes for the Duratec 3.7L which is the engine in your truck. Before 2011, it ran on 87 fuel and 91 octane did nothing for perfomance. After 2011, it had different power rating for both because of the added Ti-VCT to the engine. Mechanically, nothing else was changed.
The Duratec 3.5L has a 10.3:1 compression ration which puts it solidly in the 91 and above octane regime. To run on regular it must be detuned.
Gasoline motors with basic underlying designs that run on regular fuel see no improved performance on premium, no increased power or torque.
Start with a false premiss and you can get a false conclusion.
Yes, in the "old days" many engines designed for regular might have benefitted with premium but that was because premium fuels had better detergency than regular fuels in those old days. It had nothing to do with octane. Now, regular fuels must have equal detergency.
http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tech_tuning.html