soupnutz

Hey all, like the title suggests I've got a few questions about timing components, but first a little background info.

The phasers and timing chains have been making noise for a while, and finally last week it started running like complete crap. Cylinders 4-8 were misfiring, it had a code I can't remember now but want to say it had to do with the timing, and you could hear the chain slapping around. It was pretty much undriveable.

Finished getting it apart today and here is what I noticed. The phasers themselves look ok, but one of the driver side guides was broken and both tensioners had blown out gaskets. I was looking at the tensioners and they are complete pieces of crap. Why did they downgrade them from how they used to be, (all metal and ratcheting)? I have a set of old ones off of my sn95 mustang and after comparing them, I don't see why they wouldn't work. I see why so many of these trucks have issues on startup. Until you build oil pressure, and especially if the gaskets are bad, there won't be any tension whatsoever on the chains.

My first question is if anybody has a reason or any experience on why the mustang tensioners won't work.

My second question is if anybody knows where to get metal guides. Was going to get the Cloyes set for everything but the tensioners, but see they have plastic guides. Another downgraded component from years past. Why would they have stopped making them from metal? Would guides from the 2v 5.4 bolt up?

While I have it open I'm going to replace the oil pump with one of the melling units and install lockouts on the phasers. Anybody know if an old mustang oil pump is an upgrade to the "new" f150 one, I have a few of those laying around also. I already have an SCT tuner, just need to order a tune disabling the VCT system. Was going to go with MPT, any other recomendations?

Summers22

iTrader: (2)

Not sure if guides for the 2v bolts up, but the metal tensioners from the 2v does. There are no metal guides for the 3v that I know of. Not sure I want metal guides anyway.....metal chain on metal guide doesnt sound to appealing to me. Anyway the melling 10340 is what I am going with, not sure if a Mustang pump will work. As far as lock-outs, why? The potential for tensioners, chain stretch, guide breakage and oil pump failure is still there, even with lock-outs. So I plan on rebuilding my whole timing system with upgraded parts and because of that, lock-outs will never be used on my engines as there is no benefit to locking them out.

soupnutz

The friction surface isn't metal, it's the bracket that holds it, (and what broke), that's metal. As far as the phaser lockouts go, it's cheaper to do that since I already have the tuner, then it is to replace the phasers. That, and it gets rid of one more potential failure item. If I had to spend $400 for the tuner on top of it, I'd probably just replace the phasers.

4.6owner

MMR makes a set of guides that are aluminum and will work but are pricey. Pumps from a mustang will also work. I would suggest the 13' GT500 pump and TSS gears if you are forced induction.

redfishtd

They make a tensioner side but not the other, the opposite side is the one that breaks .

BadFish523

Lockout? Goodbye MPGs, and a little power, and many extra spark plugs probably! Yikes! If you already got it open I would just spend the money to put in new phasers. From what I've been told the system uses the variable timing to also help cool the engine and with the lockouts in you will be causing extra wear on many things, especially the plugs! When you do this don't forget to drop the pan and clean it out. Also clean off the oil pickup tube and new VCT solenoids. Do it all and do it right! I just had mine done and it runs GREAT!

F150Torqued

This is not consistent with your original post. The indicated failures did not include Phasers. In fact you say Phasers look fine, and my guess is they probably ARE. To my knowledge, Phasers are seldom the 'cause' of chain noise / blown tensioner gaskets / broken guides - or the resulting plastic pieces clogging the Oil Pump pickup tube.


If cost is the issue - you would be better off to re-use the old Phasers and just rig one of your old Mustang valve springs under the Tensioner Arms and force a self-tapping bolt into the tensioner oil passageway. That Would be cheaper AND save gas - maintenance parts - and all other future stresses on the engine mentioned by @StephenG.

But for the $200.00 "NET" additional cost ($425.00 for OEM Phasers - minus - $100 for lockouts and probably 100 for the VCT defeating TUNE), I would certainly recommend fixing it ALL THE WAY.


Active monitoring of cam retard while driving, indicates a HUGE percentage of driving conditions (very possibly 90%), the triton is employing some degree of cam retard. VERY often as much as 55 to 60 'crankshaft' degrees. Retard provides EGR effect and lowers compression ratio relieving stresses on the engine in several ways. @StephenG is correct - I have actively monitored Cylinder Head temperature volts from the CHT Sensor while driving, and you can see cylinder head temperature decline very quickly when cam retard is employed.


My belief is - your long term interests are much better served by not going the lockout route.


Good luck

soupnutz

Hell yeah, might just drill some holes in the timing cover and rig up some manual tensioners......


As for the phasers, with an external lookover I didn't see any obvious problems. Have no idea about the internals, or spring tension or any other issues that might be associated with it. I agree with you that the phasers are probably never the initial issue, but a symptom of low oil pressure that can contribute further issues down the line. From how I understand it, whether it's the tensioner seals, or various other engine wear, it reduces oil pressure to the tensioner and phasers. Between the phaser moving and the reduced tensioner operation the chain gets to slapping around braking the guides and rubbing the timing cover, which can plug up the pick-up tube reducing oil pressure even more and down the spiral you progress.


The way that I see it, between using the metal/ratcheting tensioners and locking the phasers, any instances of reduced oil pressure won't have that much of an effect on the chains. I've read about and understand the negatives of locking them out, just not overly concerned about them.


My two biggest questions have been answered. I'll post the results when I get everything back together and tested.

F150Torqued

Yeah, there you go. It worked fine for the drive chain on my early motorcycles! Ever couple a thousand miles or so, give it a half turn and tighten the lock-nut. Lol


Actually your second paragraph indicates to me you have a complete and accurate understanding of what is happening (at least the same way as I see it). Only thing I would add (and a significant part of my anti lockout sentiment) is that I believe 'chain wear / stretch' is a very often an over-looked part of the problem. Obscured by looking/wishing for something easier to fix - never knowing that ALONE could have corrected the entire symptom. The design of tensioners does not provide a large amount of adjustment (perhaps no more than 1/2" to 5/8"). That's not much considering the length of the chains. Expecting THAT to take up all the stretch on one side of the chain is asking a lot.

ONLY 4 thousandths (.004") wear in each roller joint of the LONG chains (containing 122 roller joints) will result in the chains being 488 thousandths (almost 1/2") longer. I would bet money the perfectly working tensioners could no longer remove that much slack. And the chain hitting the timing cover would be understandable. I know for fact that my old chains, laid out next to the new ones, were a full 1/2" longer end to end. Well never know, but I wonder if I had just replaced CHAINS, and nothing else, what would have happened?


Your truck, at 111,000 miles is a little early for that problem. Another testament to need for good maintenance. But mine went 212,000 miles. Having to replace metal timing chains at that interval is not really unreasonable - and lockouts would offer zero improvement to the issue.


EDIT: Guess I got your mileage mixed up with another member. But I'm not confused about mine at least! Lol

soupnutz

I wonder how much the phasers dancing around effects chain stretch. Probably puts a lot of stress on it. This is the first f150 3v engine I've messed with, but had the opportunity to compare 3 higher mileage 2v engine timing sets to new, and none of the chains had any visible stretch.
I'd have been comfortable reusing them.

On those engines the tensioners werent more than halfway extended. Don't feel like breaking out the math book and looking up formulas, but I'd think with the remaining extension, and the radius and swivel point of the guide it could account for close to half an inch.