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I'll bet @Freak007 would trade with you 'bout now. But my take is even that wouldn't fix whatever his problem is. I believe there is something bigtime going on in that driver's side head / valve train. I don't think it is a 'plugged' passageway or restrictor. Seems if part of the flow up top was constrained, it would make lower end pressure tend to be higher than we'd expect, not lower.
Your pressure is impressive - but I say that a little tongue-in-cheek. What weight oil? Where is your gauge port, before or after Oil Filter? There's a bunch of factors that get involved and need to be considered. 29 to 34 is really good. I was thinking your 108 must be the oil pump bypass spring setting, til I saw that 130 ... ?? Boy that;ll tighten up the ole chain tensioners. I'd let that dude warm up good before romping on it.
The sending unit is in the factory position. I added a T and just added the aftermarket sending unit, along with the factory one.
I'm not really sure why it cut off the bottom of the screen shots. That was just showing the RPM.
Hot Idle, after 17 Mile drive. 600 RPM 1100 RPM 1100 RPM "Cold" start. 58 Degrees. Sorry for the flash, that is 103 psi. This is about 1700 RPM
That seems a little discouraging considering it has a new Ford HV Oil Pump. But that 1800 rpm sitting still in the driveway pumped up 80 lbs - damn well enough to send the phaser to full advance. With 80 lbs going into the advance chambers AND on spring end of locking pin it should have locked that phaser at base and held it there even if pressure later dropped below 18. Under your driveway conditions there was no justifiable reason for the PCM to ever call for retard - which would have been necessary to unlock it.
Pressure is definitely lower than I expected. Especially with the "HV/HP" pump. I'm not sure if that speaks to the condition of the engine, or the volume of the pump... I certainly wish now I had done additional diagnostics prior to the timing job... Regardless of the lowish pressure, it is still above the 15psi minimum specified by SSM 32051
I can't 100% say the cam was *ever* truly locked, what I can say, is once pressure dropped below 25psi AND I increased the RPM, it no longer remained in the fully advanced position.
Either a major oil leakage AFTER (downstream) the restrictor in the oil galley in driver's side head that kills pressure available to phaser, or ---- still bad phaser.
Oil is fed to the driver's side head at the front of the head. The driver's side head is also fed before the passenger side. I tend to believe an internal leak that is sufficient to affect the driver's side phaser would also affect the rest of the valvetrain.
Another 'tid-bit' that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet. Was THIS condition or symptom present in this truck 'BEFORE' the timing job, or seem to be directly related to the work done?
The truck had symptoms of a failed phaser. I stupidly did not do any diagnostics prior beyond pulling codes.
Originally Posted by Jojodapyro
It's also nice for me to see the difference in the Ford pump and the 360HV. Cold start I'm at 108 psi at around 1200 rpm. Really cold (below 30) mornings I saw 130's. Hot idle, 550 rpms at 190 degrees is around 29 to 34. Cruising at 1400 or so I see 75-90. My timing was done in March. All Ford parts besides the oil pump. I'll snap some photos in the morning.
Totally different discussion, but something is wrong with your setup. The M360 bypass valve is supposed to be set to 80psi. Either your valve is stuck, or your gauge is wrong. I've personally seen filters explode at 130psi. Also, those kinds of pressures can blow your filter apart internally and cause another set of problems. Especially if you used the cast iron tensioners....
Originally Posted by F150Torqued
I believe there is something bigtime going on in that driver's side head / valve train. I don't think it is a 'plugged' passageway or restrictor. Seems if part of the flow up top was constrained, it would make lower end pressure tend to be higher than we'd expect, not lower.
Since the oil feed to the driver's side head is at the front of the head, a restriction that affects the phaser should (in theory) also affect the lash adjusters.
I may try to access the test ports at the back of the heads...
Originally Posted by F150Torqued
OK @Freak007 , where are we at this morning? You need to borrow my never used cheez wedge that came with the phaser holding tool?
I called Ford yesterday in an effort to get the phaser replaced under warranty. I had the "pleasure" of dealing with one of the least professional CSRs I've ever dealt with in my life. Without even asking a single question about my truck, my experience level or my diagnostic procedures he immediately began berating me about how it's impossible for a phaser to be failed out of the box. It is obviously something I did or something wrong with the engine because "even professionals screw this up all the time." Hey, guess what buddy... I'm not your "average" professional. He want's me to run the entire P0011/P0022 pinpoint tests... which will come back and say "change the phasers."
As of right now, I am in the middle of a good old fashioned diesel fuel flush. I don't expect it to do much as this engine has been fed a steady diet of 5k oil changes with PYB for the last 130k or so... the internals were exceptionally clean, and were also manually cleaned when the timing system was serviced... But it doesn't really cost me anything but time to try it. It will be refilled with 15w40 Delo for no other reason than "I can" and the oil pressure and phaser operation will be retested. I will then be contacting Ford again with my findings.
If it comes down to it, I guess I'll buy another phaser from the local dealership. I do have a wedge tool already. I guess if the phaser doesn't solve the issue, I'll be pulling the front cover to check the tensioner seal and VCT housing/gasket... While I'm in there, anyone care to donate toward the purchase of a M360HV "in the name of science"? Would be a great opportunity to directly compare the performance of the $130 Melling to the $90 FMC...
Last edited by Freak007; Jun 25, 2019 at 11:31 AM.
If I had the money I would totally buy you one. The one I bought is also for a 07-12 Supercharged Mustang. Happy Mistake. According to Melling, The back plate also flexes at 90 psi. I just let it warm up. It is a good reminder not to jump in and go!
I did not attempt to exceed 185° as my results from last test were confirmed; when oil pressure gets somewhere between 25 and 30 PSI, the phaser fails to lock back into base timing. No matter how you look at it, this fails to meet Ford's specification of operating correctly at 15 PSI. I will be contacting Ford again about a warranty replacement.
@F150Torqued - On a side note, are you prepared to change at least a portion of what you believe about VCT operation? What do you see in these screen shots?
Last edited by Freak007; Jun 25, 2019 at 04:23 PM.
@F150Torqued - On a side note, are you prepared to change at least a portion of what you believe about VCT operation? What do you see in these screen shots?
But respectfully, I'm kinda scratching my head (and other parts of my anatomy) trying to remember something (anything) that we disagreed upon very much.
Oh, I remember one! Whether OBDII dynamically reports actual Cam Timing positioning and CAM ERROR being deviation from THAT <OR> reports the PCM's calculated value for Requested CAM RETARD position with CAM ERROR being deviation from THAT. Well --- I didn't pursue it further for three reasons (One BS and two half/*****ed informed). So I am, at best, only 66 2/3 sure of myself on that subject. The BS one, it seems I can get home from either place I start - so as I decided "Mox Nix" and didn't mention it further.
The second, I have ran TOTAL OBDII PID scans (all 65,535 of them) on my truck multiple times and saved responses into databases. I still have them and refer back to them often - having worked out what almost all of the roughly 525 responding ones relate to, I HAVE NEVER found others reporting 'anything I can identify' as related cam position data other than PID # x16CD (RCAM) and PID # x091C (RCAM2) Both 2 byte binary responses. I monitored, logged and uploaded them them into EXCEL databases and 'fiddled' with formulas for a long time. Knowing (from reliable research) that maximum POSSIBLE RETARD in the Phaser is just shy of 35 camshaft degrees, was able to develop a Torque Pro fromula that applied to the data resulted in reasonable readings between ZERO and ~62 - Crankshaft Degrees. (Another subject for another time - you might help me make sense of WHY the damn formula works with respect to 360 or 720 degrees?????. But it is reliable and repeatable).
THEN Third: One day, I was researching (don't tell anyone but It was actually 'HACKING') and I got into a backdoor of the computer system of a Dyno-mometer Manufacturer, and found/downloaded a database. There I found a bunch of PIDs that matched and augmented my work. (the mother load). The Acrynoms associated with those exact PID numbers were designated as "RCAM - Requested Cam Retard Bank1" and "RCAM2 - Requested Cam Retard Bank2".
Hence, I adopted what I believe about THAT as "F150Torqued Gospel". Nevertheless, still prepared to change!!!
---------------
As for your screenshots: One thing I observe. Both at 0.0 mph. Engine Load is 16% and 15% respectively. Engine RPM is 668 and 1148 respectively --- HOWEVER, screenshot 2 indicates VCTDC and VCTDC2 both ~33% duty cycle - with NO ERROR, which indicates to me the PCM is commanding the VCT's to OPEN - and they are working. The Percentage Duty Cycle is roughly equivelant to what mine will issue {40-45%} to open solenoids) running 5w30 full synthetic. HOWEVER - what is contrary to what I have come to believe (from monitoring my truck only) is that MINE will _NEVER_ issue VCTDC or VCTDC2 unless both RPM > 800 RPM AND engine load > 25-30%. I have always advocated to exercise Phasers (for engine flush etc), Torque the trans up to 1200-1500 rpm in Second gear. Yours seems to be issuing Cam Retard command (RCAM / RCAM2).
.....But respectfully, I'm kinda scratching my head (and other parts of my anatomy) trying to remember something (anything) that we disagreed upon very much.....
Actually nothing that I can recall...
Oh, I remember one! Whether OBDII dynamically reports actual Cam Timing positioning and CAM ERROR being deviation from THAT <OR> reports the PCM's calculated value for Requested CAM RETARD position with CAM ERROR being deviation from THAT. Well --- I didn't pursue it further for three reasons (One BS and two half/*****ed informed). So I am, at best, only 66 2/3 sure of myself on that subject. The BS one, it seems I can get home from either place I start - so as I decided "Mox Nix" and didn't mention it further.
The second, I have ran TOTAL OBDII PID scans (all 65,535 of them) on my truck multiple times and saved responses into databases. I still have them and refer back to them often - having worked out what almost all of the roughly 525 responding ones relate to, I HAVE NEVER found others reporting 'anything I can identify' as related cam position data other than PID # x16CD (RCAM) and PID # x091C (RCAM2) Both 2 byte binary responses. I monitored, logged and uploaded them them into EXCEL databases and 'fiddled' with formulas for a long time. Knowing (from reliable research) that maximum POSSIBLE RETARD in the Phaser is just shy of 35 camshaft degrees, was able to develop a Torque Pro fromula that applied to the data resulted in reasonable readings between ZERO and ~62 - Crankshaft Degrees. (Another subject for another time - you might help me make sense of WHY the damn formula works with respect to 360 or 720 degrees?????. But it is reliable and repeatable).
THEN Third: One day, I was researching (don't tell anyone but It was actually 'HACKING') and I got into a backdoor of the computer system of a Dyno-mometer Manufacturer, and found/downloaded a database. There I found a bunch of PIDs that matched and augmented my work. (the mother load). The Acrynoms associated with those exact PID numbers were designated as "RCAM - Requested Cam Retard Bank1" and "RCAM2 - Requested Cam Retard Bank2".
Hence, I adopted what I believe about THAT as "F150Torqued Gospel". Nevertheless, still prepared to change!!!
I thought we already agreed that this was a difference in OBD reader software? At any rate, I will say this about the subject, and then leave it alone; the PCM obviously knows what it is requesting for cam retard (RCAM), the only possible way it could know if it has achieved it or not, is by monitoring actual cam position. The error PID is a calculation, not an actual reported position.
As for your screenshots: One thing I observe. Both at 0.0 mph. Engine Load is 16% and 15% respectively. Engine RPM is 668 and 1148 respectively --- HOWEVER, screenshot 2 indicates VCTDC and VCTDC2 both ~33% duty cycle - with NO ERROR, which indicates to me the PCM is commanding the VCT's to OPEN - and they are working. The Percentage Duty Cycle is roughly equivelant to what mine will issue {40-45%} to open solenoids) running 5w30 full synthetic. HOWEVER - what is contrary to what I have come to believe (from monitoring my truck only) is that MINE will _NEVER_ issue VCTDC or VCTDC2 unless both RPM > 800 RPM AND engine load > 25-30%. I have always advocated to exercise Phasers (for engine flush etc), Torque the trans up to 1200-1500 rpm in Second gear. Yours seems to be issuing Cam Retard command (RCAM / RCAM2).
THIS! In addition to RPM and load, look at the throttle angle. I have *very* slightly tipped into the throttle, and VCT retard is being commanded while stationary and well below 25% load. Another interesting behavior I have observed with the VCT is that while closed throttle decel, the PCM will alternately pulse both solenoids between 0 and 80% (one bank will be 0, and the other 80) for a short time. I haven't taken the time to figure out *why* either of these events occur, but they do...
Pulled the valve cover and ran the engine hot and inspected oil flow. There is definitely no shortage of oil to the top end.
I never paid super close attention, and my old tensioners are not here; can anyone tell me if the left tensioner has a bleed hole on top that would be positioned to spray oil directly on the timing chain?
Always PREPARED
