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Alot of excellent and much appreciated information here!
Originally Posted by F150Torqued
I BELIEVE YOU HAVE A BAD PHASER (out of the box) - if VCT Solenoids unplug - still have driver's side Phaser "SLIP" into a 'retard' state. (ie NOT stay locked).
The more I think about it, the more I agree. If this truck was in my stall, with no knowledge of it's history, I'd be replacing the driver's side phaser.
The *only* other option I can see is that *somehow* oil is bypassing the solenoid into the phaser to unlock it. I am not sure how this would happen. Perhaps a faulty VCT housing?
I honestly have no clue how much actual oil pressure (AT THE PHASER) it takes to overcome the spring in the little locking pin. MY 'gut' says it's not much.
I can't answer this directly, as I have not figured out how to measure the oil pressure at the #1 cam journal, let alone at the phaser itself. What I *can* tell you is that around 2006 FMC issued a TSB/SSM due to a large number of "functional" phasers being replaced under warranty. That bulletin specified 25psi at hot idle, as measured at the filter. Somewhere around 2008, when the phaser design was updated, the bulletin was updated as well. The new bulletin specified 15psi at hot idle, measured at the filter. One of my mentors when I was at the dealership insisted that his experience was 10psi as measured on his Snap-On gauge was sufficient to correctly operate the updated phasers, and 20psi was sufficient for the old style. His technique to verify sufficient pressure was to run the engine to 190 degree EOT and ground the passenger side solenoid. If the cam position moved, pressure was sufficient. His logic was that he never knew which style of phaser he was dealing with, but the passenger phaser was the last in the hydraulic chain. If the oil pressure was enough to move the passenger cam, it was enough.
But the the Locking Pin is very much controlled by the VCT solenoid action also (see discussion at end). I - 'THINK' - its UNIQUE design intent is primarily for 'cranking' when there is NO oil pressure. Not locked at startup will produce P034x.
Makes sense to me
WHATEVER flow/pressure exists in the head is being routed 100% into the advance chambers AND to the proper 'side' of the locking pin. When Oil flow is routed into 'retard' passageways (passageways in phaser routes it to overcome the locking pin spring). Oil pressure at that point is supposed to be sufficient to move/hold the phaser vanes firmly against advanced end of chambers. Oil Pressure in the ADVANCE passageways is routed to the end of the locking pin to force it into place.
THIS, I was unaware of. I knew oil pressure into the retard chambers would cause the pin to unlock and cam to phase. I did NOT know oil into the advance chamber also applied pressure to the LOCK side of the pin. This explains why the locking pin spring is so light. This also makes sense as to why low oil pressure would cause the phaser not to lock; if there is insufficient oil pressure in the advance chambers/clockspring to overcome the valvetrain, the cam will jump around. Furthermore, if the pressure is insufficient, it will be unable to drive the locking pin into the hole as the cam "bounces" off the full advance position.
See comment 1 above. By 800 RPM, there is PLENTY OF OIL PRESSURE - on even the shabbyiest worn out engine. The phaser design has an oil passageway machined from '' chamber to the 'head' of the spring loaded locking pin. VCT de-energized (or unplugged) 100% oil flow/pressure is being routed into is independent from VCT Solenoid oil routing, rather solely oil pressure driven.
Is there any way that you are aware of that could cause the oil to bypass the solenoid and enter the retard chamber/unlock the pin?
4) Possibly. However, wouldn't this also cause issues with the phaser unlocking and being able to move, especially at hot idle when oil pressure is the lowest?
IDK. Don't think so because (I think) lock pin release is lower [and because of Locking Pin passageway design
I'm a very hands on guy... tough for me to comprehend pictures alone, and I've never disassembled a phaser to that level. I believe you, but I happen to have 2 phasers on my bench I can reverse engineer...
Not myself. But there have been posts of such. (like those supposed OEM phasers with numbers ground off... ???)
No grinding here... Ford phasers, in a Ford box, inside another Ford, box from a reputable source (Summit Racing)
NO There is RCAM & RCAM2 (requested retard, separate PIDs). VCT duty Cycle is individual per Bank. Literally two separate closed loop systems. /// Why, I have no clue what reason you would ever want different retard on one bank over the other --- but it IS WHAT IT IS.
Makes sense, and they would do it in order to overcome manufacturing tolerances. I observed this today, up until EOT reached 150, they were within 1-2% of each other. As EOT reached 150, it started to knock coming back down to idle. By the time EOT reached 175, they were shut off. By the time EOT was 205 the truck was undriveable if I allowed it to come to an idle.
I have never found an ACTUAL cam position Pid.
I parted with my IDS several years ago, but currently use Forscan. In Forscan that PID is VCTADV and VCTADV2. As I recall, it was the same/similar in IDS. I am unfamiliar with TorquePro, but might need to get that way, as I also have a Honda, 3 GMs and a couple Jeeps in my maintenance pool...
--- UNIQUE Locking PIN design. If you UNPLUG VCT SOLENOID - there is no justification for phaser to ever become unlocked for the below reasons. If passenger side has sufficient oil pressure and works - drivers side should have sufficient oil pressure to work......
.......Phaser BACK SIDE . Oil Passageways out of camshaft enter phaser through drillings into Advance Chambers. When VCT Solenoids divert (rout oil into advance chambers), it also puts pressure forward ON the locking pin - WITH the spring.....
.......Phaser FRONT PLATE that the CLOCK SPRING mounts to and contains Locking Pin 'receptical' where the locking pin engages. NOTE: the small passageway machined over to the left and UPWARD. This allows oil that is above the locking pin cap to escape INTO the retard chamber (which has lower pressure than Advance Chamber when VCT routes more oil into advance chambers, and choking off retard chambers. This is the IDLE state - or anytime below 800 RPM and 25-30% engine load....
....PHASER CHAMBERS with paswer "RETARDED" a few degrees - and the FRONT PLATE offset just a sloght amount - enough to expose the machining over to the "head" of the Locking Pin....
.....PHASER INTERNALS associated with the LOCKING PIIN.
Appreciate the pics... Unfortunately I'll need to get off my phone and onto a big-screen to truly see what's going on...
Mandatory screen shots, although I doubt they will change the outcome of this discussion...
I will be testing oil pressure as soon as the rain lets up...
Plenty of codes... I'm focusing on the cam related ones first. I'm fairly certain some/all of the misfires, as well as the rich/lean codes are likely caused by the lack of cam control. Engine is idling and basically warm. EOT is in the 150 range. Phasers are both behaving... Cruising. Engine is at operating temp, ECT is 196, EOT is 205. Not very extreme, but you can see that bank 2 cam has shifted from base timing without being commanded by the PCM. Additionally, the PCM has given up trying to control cam timing due to inability to control the driver's side phaser. Changed the viewing format to allow better viewing of monitored PIDs. Yes, I am nearly WOT to maintain 70 MPH. WOT on freeway on ramp. Truck is unable to accelerate. Audible misfire can be heard in the driver's exhaust manifold. Coasting. Again, lack of control for driver's side phaser is evident. Middle of an "episode." Came to a stop, went to accelerate and have no power. Truck is currently WOT. Same "episode." I've been WOT for nearly a minute. Truck is still unable to accelerate, and has actually lost both speed and RPM. Misfire is severe enough that the CEL is flashing. Mode 6 indicates cat temps in excess of 2100°F. Hot idle. Phaser is behaving exceptionally well compared to "normal" "Typical" hot idle.
Changed the viewing format to allow better viewing of monitored PIDs. Yes, I am nearly WOT to maintain 70 MPH.
--------------------
I am in complete agreement with your opinion on misfires and rich/lean codes. THEY certainly aren't the cause of this cam catastrophe.
I have monitored the very OBDII signals you are dealing with (and they are absolutely the appropriate ones). I'm not sure I exactly understand your scanner's "Representation" of the VCTADV and VCTADV2. I THINK, those are the same OBDII PIDs that I have come to understand as RCAM and RCAM2, ie: Number of degrees ('Crankshaft degrees') of cam retard 'REQUESTED' or 'DESIRED' by the PCM.
I notice in your screenshots that 'generally' - the value of VCTADV and VCTADV2 match or are close to VCTADVER readings. HOWEVER - in ALL CASES, VCTDC and VCTDC2 is at ZERO (corresponding to my experience that the PCM 'disables' variable valve timing (sets VCTENA faulse) if it is unable to successfully control the closed loop type system. THEREFORE, with no duty cycle pulses going to the VCT solenoids - 100% of oil flow/pressure -- SHOULD -- be being routed into advance chambers >AND into the locking pin (see: photos my prior post).
Under the above stated conditions, the cams SHOULD be at zero. IF NOT - would equate to a negative CAM ERROR, or 'OVER RETARDED'. If that is the case, I semi do not understand the 'Representation' of VCTADV2 matching VCTADVERR2. But enough about what I don't know. F150Forum doesn't have enough storage to handle all of THAT.
Here is what I 'DO KNOW'. Oil pressure is NOT the sole problem. My reasoning: At 70 MPH, or 2000 - 3000 RPM, you damn sure have enough oil pressure (maybe 70 - 80 lbs) to keep 'a proper functioning' phaser at full advance (AND the locking pin engaged. see: photos my prior post). To not do so has to mean a JUNK phaser. If it was that serious oil pressure deficiency in the head galleys (NOT LOWER END, or it would destroy itself), I think there would be OTHER symptoms, such as serious lifter bleed-down and ticking, or roller/follower noise, or poor tensioner operation and chain noise.
(J)use (M)y (O)pinion, and any challenge is welcome.
------I have monitored the very OBDII signals you are dealing with (and they are absolutely the appropriate ones). I'm not sure I exactly understand your scanner's "Representation" of the VCTADV and VCTADV2. I THINK, those are the same OBDII PIDs that I have come to understand as RCAM and RCAM2, ie: Number of degrees ('Crankshaft degrees') of cam retard 'REQUESTED' or 'DESIRED' by the PCM.
Definitely a difference in software. VCTADV represents actual cam position in reference to base timing. RCAM as you know it is not available in Forscan, and in IDS is (IIRC) VCTADV-DSD (or something to that effect) I personally don't care what is requested or desired. If I know ACTUAL and ERROR, then I can calculate desired if I really want it...
I notice in your screenshots that 'generally' - the value of VCTADV and VCTADV2 match or are close to VCTADVER readings. HOWEVER - in ALL CASES, VCTDC and VCTDC2 is at ZERO (corresponding to my experience that the PCM 'disables' variable valve timing (sets VCTENA faulse) if it is unable to successfully control the closed loop type system. THEREFORE, with no duty cycle pulses going to the VCT solenoids - 100% of oil flow/pressure -- SHOULD -- be being routed into advance chambers >AND into the locking pin (see: photos my prior post).
VCTADV and VCTADVER should be close (+/-2° or so) when VCTDC is 0. This would indicate the solenoid is not energized, and the cam is at or near base timing. The 2° or so error is acceptable due to chain/tensioner slop... A base reading of ~8° would indicate the chain being off by 1 tooth at the cam ~17° would indicate towards being off by 1 tooth at the crank (or 2 at the cam). Yes, the engine will still run like this, although poorly.
Here is what I 'DO KNOW'. Oil pressure is NOT the sole problem. My reasoning: At 70 MPH, or 2000 - 3000 RPM, you damn sure have enough oil pressure (maybe 70 - 80 lbs) to keep 'a proper functioning' phaser at full advance (AND the locking pin engaged. see: photos my prior post). To not do so has to mean a JUNK phaser. If it was that serious oil pressure deficiency in the head galleys (NOT LOWER END, or it would destroy itself), I think there would be OTHER symptoms, such as serious lifter bleed-down and ticking, or roller/follower noise, or poor tensioner operation and chain noise.
BOOM! *THAT* is what I am missing. I "know" that oil pressure isn't the issue, for reasons I already stated... but this further solidifies if. I am still going to test actual pressure because I *know* Ford is going to want actual numbers when I call them in an effort to get a warranty replacement... But I work midnights, so will be taking a nap while waiting for EOT to come back down first...
(J)use (M)y (O)pinion, and any challenge is welcome.
No challenge here. You have helped to validate my diagnosis and relieve me of the concern that I somehow screwed up my own timing job...
Boys I am going to have to read this at least ten times slowly . Very interesting stuff here .I wish my old phasers were around salt water flood got all my stuff in hurricane . I am going to tear one apart one day and get better at understanding it . Very complicated assembly no wonder aftermarket can't make them right .I do have a mech friend who may have an old one .
Boys I am going to have to read this at least ten times slowly . Very interesting stuff here .I wish my old phasers were around salt water flood got all my stuff in hurricane . I am going to tear one apart one day and get better at understanding it . Very complicated assembly no wonder aftermarket can't make them right .I do have a mech friend who may have an old one .
I just barely tossed mine. They did come completely apart in riding in the back of the truck (literally completely fell apart) for a month. I got tired of the rattle.
That seems a little discouraging considering it has a new Ford HV Oil Pump. But that 1800 rpm sitting still in the driveway pumped up 80 lbs - damn well enough to send the phaser to full advance. With 80 lbs going into the advance chambers AND on spring end of locking pin it should have locked that phaser at base and held it there even if pressure later dropped below 18. Under your driveway conditions there was no justifiable reason for the PCM to ever call for retard - which would have been necessary to unlock it.
Either a major oil leakage AFTER (downstream) the restrictor in the oil galley in driver's side head that kills pressure available to phaser, or ---- still bad phaser. Another 'tid-bit' that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet. Was THIS condition or symptom present in this truck 'BEFORE' the timing job, or seem to be directly related to the work done?
It's also nice for me to see the difference in the Ford pump and the 360HV. Cold start I'm at 108 psi at around 1200 rpm. Really cold (below 30) mornings I saw 130's. Hot idle, 550 rpms at 190 degrees is around 29 to 34. Cruising at 1400 or so I see 75-90. My timing was done in March. All Ford parts besides the oil pump. I'll snap some photos in the morning.
I'll bet @Freak007 would trade with you 'bout now. But my take is even that wouldn't fix whatever his problem is. I believe there is something bigtime going on in that driver's side head / valve train. I don't think it is a 'plugged' passageway or restrictor. Seems if part of the flow up top was constrained, it would make lower end pressure tend to be higher than we'd expect, not lower.
Your pressure is impressive - but I say that a little tongue-in-cheek. What weight oil? Where is your gauge port, before or after Oil Filter? There's a bunch of factors that get involved and need to be considered. 29 to 34 is really good. I was thinking your 108 must be the oil pump bypass spring setting, til I saw that 130 ... ?? Boy that;ll tighten up the ole chain tensioners. I'd let that dude warm up good before romping on it.
06-24-2019, 01:06 AM
