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I see you replaced guides, chains and tensioners but did you use OEM or other brand? I will say this from my experience. I did the same thing but used other than OEM. I used Cloyes. The tensioners went bad after about 60k miles. This destroyed my engine as the guides got chewed throwing plastic everywhere. The chains went limp and metal went everywhere. Just a thought.
I replaced the timing chain and components with Cloyes, Ford Racing high volume oil pump was used. I have heard rattle a time or two in the last month on start up, so I am beginning to think the tensioners have failed. I also found out that he just removed the VCT's and cleaned them, he didn't replace, so now he is going to go ahead and replace them. At this point I've put so much time and money into the truck, I am about to cut my losses and sale the thing. Here is a screen shot of the truck missing, it has only been running 30 seconds or so...
I actually did the timing last winter...replaced guides chains, tensioners, oil pump, oil pick up tube/screen, I dropped the oil pan and cleaned it too, replaced VCT solenoids, basically did all but the phasers, unfortunately ran out of money for those. My plan was to replace them later since they can be replaced with just removing the valve covers...
I am sorry for your misfortunes, but I think "LATER" has arrived.
Reasoning: Your misfires are at startup, within 30 sec, (so prolific it exceeds Torque Pro's gauge update rate - {MFTot 220 is 2 greater than the sum of MFC1-8 which haven't all been updated yet}. There is a distinct relationship between your misfires at startup and over retarded - both on same bank. When cam is retarded - valves (intake & Exhaust) are opening later with respect to TDC. That means the piston is down from TDC, {some distance?} before Intake Valve OPENS. Thus less air is drawn into the cylinder before Piston goes up on compression stroke - effectively reducing COMPRESSION. (Not Compression Ratio, but total compression PSI). Fuel air mixture under much less compression is far more likely to not ignite - or if it does ignite it is much LESS likely to produce the crankshaft rotational speed acceleration required to satisfy the PCM's misfire test. (Since you've changed COP's / Plugs, they may actually be firing - just too lite/weak to trip the PCM logic for a good ignition).
You report possible chain rattle. ??? With new chains ??20,000 miles ago, it seems to me it would be more likely to be a broken guide - instead of simply a failing tensioner. Chains are long and do stretch with wear - but not 20,000. Tensioner should able to take slack out before chain touches cover - unless tensioner is basically FAILED. (Plastic tensioners or metal?)
Phasers? They have close tolerances and little small springs (like under piston ring) that hold the vanes out against chamber walls. Like piston rings / cylinder walls have to hold compression - Phasers have to hold oil pressure to operate cams effeciently. Many people do not appreciate how much movement goes on within the phaser during normal driving. They change retard degrees JUST ABOUT EVERY TIME YOU MOVE THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL. I believe 155,000 miles is plenty to wear them out if the vehicle is mostly city driving. While your P0012 and P0021 result from different operations - they both relate to difficulty successfully moving the cams to proper position 'PROMPTLY' (within 5 seconds of PCM's requested change).
I believe your issue centers in the Phasers. If valve covers are removed to do Phasers, I would scope Bank1 carefully for broken guide.
You should be able to confirm or deny some of this with Torque Pro with this dashboard by watching 'Requested Retard, VTC duty cycle, and Cam Error indicating the difference between Requested and Actual cam position (as sensed from CPS).
If there is a significant difference in cam rotational drag, or oil pressure loss on one bank, that is causing your Over-Retard condition (Ie: Cam Bearings) - it will show up in the % duty cycle in the VCT solenoids.
In any case, I wish you the best and hope you get her fixed up. We don't want to loose a good Forum Member.
Last edited by F150Torqued; 10-29-2018 at 10:42 AM.
I wish you well but for those of us that scrape to save a buck we are DIY mechanics . $$$ is a big reason . New vehicles are outrageously priced not to mention the loan payments of many years .Paying a mechanic has its place but we save it for the jobs we really don't want to do .
Granted this engine costs a lot to renew but in the scheme of things its not that bad .You really can't cut corners on parts especially when the labor is going to cost again and again .Most of us get quite a kick out of fixing stuff, its a hell of a high to whip the problems . Even though a full timing job parts runs $1400. We know that hurts .Hell a paint job can run 5k or so .
The complicated cam circuit works very hard and must be kept very clean ,its high duty cycle .With all its failings I'm glad I don't have the newer small engines with the troublesome dual turbos . Cam timing is here to stay with gas engines, its all over the place with all manufactures . Most of these parts are upgraded so it reduces future problems .
In my opinion you have a nice looking truck it may end up being a classic down the road . Mine works good and has serious ouch badges to reflect it . But at 197k I hope shes still good at 350k .
Thanks for all the help and recommendations guys, I really appreciate it I, like. many of you, work on my own stuff when I can. I changed the timing components myself, I've changed all the brake system, struts, shocks, put my leveling kit on, replaced cats, o2 sensors, exhaust manifold, rear axle seal, 4x4 actuators along with general maintenance. So needless to say, I don't necessarily like when someone else has to work on my stuff. Currently though I work as a full time special education teacher, I am taking a full load of masters classes, I'm coaching varsity football so currently I'm stretched a bit thin. When I did the timing set, it came with the plastic tensioners. I just talked to the guy who was working on my truck he said he replaced the VCT this time and the one he took out had a hole in the screen, says its running good now. I just don't know what to do now as far as keeping or selling. I still owe $3500 on it, but it scares me a bit since I've had this problem. New and even used trucks are stupid expensive now too. Maybe I can get the phasers to last until next summer when I get some more money and fix it, or just cut my losses, sale it and get something else, either way, I'm Ford through and through so it would be another Ford, but not a 5.4 3v for sure..
You are a busy boy . No wonder you have to farm some of it out . Like you say you can change phasers out one at a time from the top and scope it to look inside timing cover .You think you are in sticker shock I bought a new 1967 vw for $1500. a new 1969 skylark for 3k . Never again .my wallet stuck in 1960's .
So far after a few days of driving the VCT solenoid seems to have fixed it. I freaked out there a little bit when I was having three cylinders missing, lol. I'm planning on keeping it and next summer trying to change the phasers...
It is hard to wrap our heads around all the various symptoms that different mechanical failures (or partial failures) can cause. Honestly, I would not have thought VCT solenoid would have been the fix to your symptoms. Perhaps that one was not closing completely shut when it should - where some small amount of oil was always being routed into retard chambers of the Phaser. But, I cannot rationalize ANY POSSIBLE way one solenoid can cause over retarded on one bnk AND over advanced on the other side.
I would be using the above Torque Pro screen looking for any anomaly that could fill in pieces of the puzzle.
10-28-2018, 09:43 AM
