Engine Longevity Math
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Engine Longevity Math
I was playing with Excel today and doing some thinking. I read a lot of nay-sayers calling the longevity of the EcoBoost and 5.0 into question because they're not "truck engines" as in they have DOHC, turbos and an intercooler (EB), and the sin of all sins in truck engines - aluminum blocks. I know I've read several times that "these new engines just won't make it to 250,000 miles, period" so I decided to evaluate that claim from an economic standpoint.
If you were to drive a 2V 5.4l engine (which seems to be the most long-lived variety based on what I've read) for 250k miles on the highway at 16 mpg, it would require 15,625 gallons of gas. At an average price (over the next 10 years) of $4/gal, that works out to $62,500 spent on gas over the life of the vehicle.
If you were to drive a comparably equipped (4x4 SCrew) EB truck, which I chose because it seems to get picked on the most for expensive to fix, at 21 mpg highway it would require 11,904 gallons of gas. At the same $4 average that would cost $47,620 over the life of the vehicle.
The money saved in gas adds up to about $14,900 which, if I remember correctly, would be about the cost of buying a brand new EcoBoost engine off the shelf.
Conclusion: Only if your 2V 5.4l goes 250,000 miles with nothing but preventative maintenance and the competing EcoBoost blows its engine do you come out on top financially. The numbers for the 5.0 are even more favorable. Yes, the new engines may not be *as* durable and long-lived as the old ones but they do so much better fuel economy-wise that the total cost of ownership over the life of the truck is lower.
Thoughts?
If you were to drive a 2V 5.4l engine (which seems to be the most long-lived variety based on what I've read) for 250k miles on the highway at 16 mpg, it would require 15,625 gallons of gas. At an average price (over the next 10 years) of $4/gal, that works out to $62,500 spent on gas over the life of the vehicle.
If you were to drive a comparably equipped (4x4 SCrew) EB truck, which I chose because it seems to get picked on the most for expensive to fix, at 21 mpg highway it would require 11,904 gallons of gas. At the same $4 average that would cost $47,620 over the life of the vehicle.
The money saved in gas adds up to about $14,900 which, if I remember correctly, would be about the cost of buying a brand new EcoBoost engine off the shelf.
Conclusion: Only if your 2V 5.4l goes 250,000 miles with nothing but preventative maintenance and the competing EcoBoost blows its engine do you come out on top financially. The numbers for the 5.0 are even more favorable. Yes, the new engines may not be *as* durable and long-lived as the old ones but they do so much better fuel economy-wise that the total cost of ownership over the life of the truck is lower.
Thoughts?
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That's a good way to put it! I'm all for the old technology like the 6.2 but that's definitely enlightening. I usually just think of engines like lightbulbs. Lightbulbs are only good for so many kilowatt hours and engines are only good for so many horsepower hours so the more you romp on an engine or the more power an engine puts out it just naturally won't last as long.
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I dont know how these numbers came to be? 250k miles who thought that up? If it goes only 50k miles between turbos does anyone know? This has to be a wait and see 5 years from now some of these trucks might get to 250k or 10 years 500k, right now its a best guess... As far as maintanance you could reduce or increase costs based just on oil changes at conservatively 50.00 each. More or less oil changes effect longevity. 4.00 per gallon one may look back and laugh at the thought of that price, which we know will go up or down based on market economy.
The only right answer here is those that have the new engines of course hope for the best. Anyone that does not have one probably really dont care.. My 5.4 gets 13mpg or 18 mpg depends when where how and conditions I drive in.. I dont know much about the new engines, as does no one else, real world issues will creep in and Ford will say we didnt think of that. I have a Mustang to prove Ford does not realize real world use. (We park on a slight incline so the dam thing leaks, Ford made the assumption in testing flat ground parked or moving pushing the water where they thought it would go). So in 5 years we can talk more about the new engines, if Ford did their homework or blew it big time, or somewhere in the middle.
The only right answer here is those that have the new engines of course hope for the best. Anyone that does not have one probably really dont care.. My 5.4 gets 13mpg or 18 mpg depends when where how and conditions I drive in.. I dont know much about the new engines, as does no one else, real world issues will creep in and Ford will say we didnt think of that. I have a Mustang to prove Ford does not realize real world use. (We park on a slight incline so the dam thing leaks, Ford made the assumption in testing flat ground parked or moving pushing the water where they thought it would go). So in 5 years we can talk more about the new engines, if Ford did their homework or blew it big time, or somewhere in the middle.
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From: Texas
Originally Posted by 2010FX4F150GILROY
I dont know how these numbers came to be? 250k miles who thought that up? If it goes only 50k miles between turbos does anyone know? This has to be a wait and see 5 years from now some of these trucks might get to 250k or 10 years 500k, right now its a best guess... As far as maintanance you could reduce or increase costs based just on oil changes at conservatively 50.00 each. More or less oil changes effect longevity. 4.00 per gallon one may look back and laugh at the thought of that price, which we know will go up or down based on market economy.
The only right answer here is those that have the new engines of course hope for the best. Anyone that does not have one probably really dont care.. My 5.4 gets 13mpg or 18 mpg depends when where how and conditions I drive in.. I dont know much about the new engines, as does no one else, real world issues will creep in and Ford will say we didnt think of that. I have a Mustang to prove Ford does not realize real world use. (We park on a slight incline so the dam thing leaks, Ford made the assumption in testing flat ground parked or moving pushing the water where they thought it would go). So in 5 years we can talk more about the new engines, if Ford did their homework or blew it big time, or somewhere in the middle.
The only right answer here is those that have the new engines of course hope for the best. Anyone that does not have one probably really dont care.. My 5.4 gets 13mpg or 18 mpg depends when where how and conditions I drive in.. I dont know much about the new engines, as does no one else, real world issues will creep in and Ford will say we didnt think of that. I have a Mustang to prove Ford does not realize real world use. (We park on a slight incline so the dam thing leaks, Ford made the assumption in testing flat ground parked or moving pushing the water where they thought it would go). So in 5 years we can talk more about the new engines, if Ford did their homework or blew it big time, or somewhere in the middle.
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That's a good way to put it! I'm all for the old technology like the 6.2 but that's definitely enlightening. I usually just think of engines like lightbulbs. Lightbulbs are only good for so many kilowatt hours and engines are only good for so many horsepower hours so the more you romp on an engine or the more power an engine puts out it just naturally won't last as long.
The total power output is equal to the area under the torque curve for the life of the engine (I could be wrong about this so let me know).
But...
I still can't wrap my head around the high specific power being detrimental to engine life. Is it heat? Heat can be managed by proper cooling system design. Is it material fatigue and if so, how close to the envelope of material performance are these engines operating? Could someone tell me exactly what fails in high specific power engines and why it fails earlier than in engines of low specific power? I flat out don't believe the inverse correlation between horsepower per cubic inch and engine logevity.
I know wise mechanics and the people who listen to them say that there is no replacement for displacement but there were also a lot of wise mechanics that said heavier than air flight will never be possible.
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A tid bit about turbo charged engines...
First turbo charged vehicles take a lot of extra care and maintainance, attention to particular details to specific things to keep them in tip top condition...
unfortunately few people or owners remember to keep up with all these things along with the life of the car even if they bought it new and had the owners manual with instructions etc. with the special instructions for the addtional special specific care needs for the turbo engine which are different than the same engine without the Turbo on it
Turbocharged engines are even more critical on warm up and oil cuirculation issues before driving away from the curb or driveway.... At least 2 minutes idle time is recommended before driving away also a spool down/idle down time of 2 minutes is recommended prior to turning the engine off when you park it...
These parimeters are most often forgotten and neglected by the owner/driver and are the causes of heavy engine and turbo charger wear and failure...
should a turbocharger fail... you must have the engine also inspected for damage prior to turbocharger replacement or you may have the engine fail too soon after turbo charger replacement...
An exact engine life is hard to estimate it depends on how freqeunt oil was changed (I recommend every 2000 miles to trurbo owners) how car was driven was idle spool up/spool time always followed etc.
dad's advice is good stay away from turbo cars for the most part unless you're a true car nut enthusiast prepared for the extra headache precautions...
also Audi's are status symbol cars so I recommend most people stay away from them, oter status symbol cars are Volvo, Mercedes, Saab, BMW (Beemers)
status symbol cars are almost always imports with a few exceptions and the parts and labor for them always cost more and they often get poorer fuel economy becasue they're targeted toward people who have more money (the affluent)
Food for thought:
First turbo charged vehicles take a lot of extra care and maintainance, attention to particular details to specific things to keep them in tip top condition...
unfortunately few people or owners remember to keep up with all these things along with the life of the car even if they bought it new and had the owners manual with instructions etc. with the special instructions for the addtional special specific care needs for the turbo engine which are different than the same engine without the Turbo on it
Turbocharged engines are even more critical on warm up and oil cuirculation issues before driving away from the curb or driveway.... At least 2 minutes idle time is recommended before driving away also a spool down/idle down time of 2 minutes is recommended prior to turning the engine off when you park it...
These parimeters are most often forgotten and neglected by the owner/driver and are the causes of heavy engine and turbo charger wear and failure...
should a turbocharger fail... you must have the engine also inspected for damage prior to turbocharger replacement or you may have the engine fail too soon after turbo charger replacement...
An exact engine life is hard to estimate it depends on how freqeunt oil was changed (I recommend every 2000 miles to trurbo owners) how car was driven was idle spool up/spool time always followed etc.
dad's advice is good stay away from turbo cars for the most part unless you're a true car nut enthusiast prepared for the extra headache precautions...
also Audi's are status symbol cars so I recommend most people stay away from them, oter status symbol cars are Volvo, Mercedes, Saab, BMW (Beemers)
status symbol cars are almost always imports with a few exceptions and the parts and labor for them always cost more and they often get poorer fuel economy becasue they're targeted toward people who have more money (the affluent)
Food for thought:
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From: no where **** off land
^ the above was just copied to here it is from questions regarding turbo charged engines.. Again we dont have any defeniative data correllation until we see the distance that the engines will run. Typically turbo engines require more up keep so does teh added maintanance get factored in to cost?
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From: Texas
Originally Posted by 2010FX4F150GILROY
A tid bit about turbo charged engines...
First turbo charged vehicles take a lot of extra care and maintainance, attention to particular details to specific things to keep them in tip top condition...
unfortunately few people or owners remember to keep up with all these things along with the life of the car even if they bought it new and had the owners manual with instructions etc. with the special instructions for the addtional special specific care needs for the turbo engine which are different than the same engine without the Turbo on it
Turbocharged engines are even more critical on warm up and oil cuirculation issues before driving away from the curb or driveway.... At least 2 minutes idle time is recommended before driving away also a spool down/idle down time of 2 minutes is recommended prior to turning the engine off when you park it...
These parimeters are most often forgotten and neglected by the owner/driver and are the causes of heavy engine and turbo charger wear and failure...
should a turbocharger fail... you must have the engine also inspected for damage prior to turbocharger replacement or you may have the engine fail too soon after turbo charger replacement...
An exact engine life is hard to estimate it depends on how freqeunt oil was changed (I recommend every 2000 miles to trurbo owners) how car was driven was idle spool up/spool time always followed etc.
dad's advice is good stay away from turbo cars for the most part unless you're a true car nut enthusiast prepared for the extra headache precautions...
also Audi's are status symbol cars so I recommend most people stay away from them, oter status symbol cars are Volvo, Mercedes, Saab, BMW (Beemers)
status symbol cars are almost always imports with a few exceptions and the parts and labor for them always cost more and they often get poorer fuel economy becasue they're targeted toward people who have more money (the affluent)
Food for thought:
First turbo charged vehicles take a lot of extra care and maintainance, attention to particular details to specific things to keep them in tip top condition...
unfortunately few people or owners remember to keep up with all these things along with the life of the car even if they bought it new and had the owners manual with instructions etc. with the special instructions for the addtional special specific care needs for the turbo engine which are different than the same engine without the Turbo on it
Turbocharged engines are even more critical on warm up and oil cuirculation issues before driving away from the curb or driveway.... At least 2 minutes idle time is recommended before driving away also a spool down/idle down time of 2 minutes is recommended prior to turning the engine off when you park it...
These parimeters are most often forgotten and neglected by the owner/driver and are the causes of heavy engine and turbo charger wear and failure...
should a turbocharger fail... you must have the engine also inspected for damage prior to turbocharger replacement or you may have the engine fail too soon after turbo charger replacement...
An exact engine life is hard to estimate it depends on how freqeunt oil was changed (I recommend every 2000 miles to trurbo owners) how car was driven was idle spool up/spool time always followed etc.
dad's advice is good stay away from turbo cars for the most part unless you're a true car nut enthusiast prepared for the extra headache precautions...
also Audi's are status symbol cars so I recommend most people stay away from them, oter status symbol cars are Volvo, Mercedes, Saab, BMW (Beemers)
status symbol cars are almost always imports with a few exceptions and the parts and labor for them always cost more and they often get poorer fuel economy becasue they're targeted toward people who have more money (the affluent)
Food for thought:
Oh I see it's copied and pasted but nonetheless good food for thought and it will definitely be interesting to see Maintenance costs on the EB vs. 6.2 engines.
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^ the above was just copied to here it is from questions regarding turbo charged engines.. Again we dont have any defeniative data correllation until we see the distance that the engines will run. Typically turbo engines require more up keep so does teh added maintanance get factored in to cost?