68injunhed

About as much as your post had to do with a discussion about why Ford spec’d a certain weight of semi-syn oil for our trucks.

Not to mention HTHS has more to do with long term oil stability than VI.

68injunhed

This is exactly why in regards to CAFE standards. Minuscule gains multiplied by thousands of units sold = tax relief for the manufacturers.

Engineers don’t always(probably seldom, except in regards to something that would result in legal exposure) get the final say in things. If the 5w-20 will satisfy the expected results for the majority of end users, and still deliver the small economy increase, the decision makers will go that way.

Yes, the spec’d oil will most likely work just fine, plenty of people have had that exact result. That statement in no way contradicts that you could have an even BETTER result with an oil that wasn’t chosen with things other than the best mechanical outcome in mind. There is plenty of evidence out there to support that as well, as it relates to the Ford modular engine family.

River1

What exactly are you saying? CAFE standards are per vehicle MPG. Yes, if standards aren't met they are taxed per vehicle and the amount the standard is missed by but that still doesn't explain the less than marginal gain by a thinner weight oil. MPG is MPG. It doesn't matter if they make a fleet of 5 cars or 500,000 cars. Manufacturers can do much more with a vehicles electronics to control MPG than oil weight or tire pressure can offer up. Whatever this debate is about it's not about CAFE standards. The manufacturers proved this in the 70's by removing power from vehicles which they can do much easier now with the electronic engine controls.

River1

Can anyone show that a manufacturer used oil weight to meet a CAFE standard? It's an argument many are sticking to.

Dapepper9

Again, that's simply not true. What do you think those esters are mixed with? Petroleum products! Lol. PAOs are even still a petroleum product. Not to mention no Group IV is PURELY made from PAOs while no Group V is made purely of esters. That's also before you consider the base oil has very very little to do with oil performance. The additive package is the important part. There's conventional oils that perform nearly as well as most Group IV synthetics thanks to a good additive package. Esters are another compound blended into bases for temperature stabiltiy.
Can anybody show that an ENGINEER spec'd the oil in the recommendation? Because that's an argument you're completely ignoring. It's not just CAFE but CAFE has a LOT to do with it. Money is the main driving factor in any manufacturer's decision which is also why their recommendation is only a semi-syn with a poor additive package

Dapepper9

Truuuth
Truuuuth
And you know what happened with that in the 70s? Those engines became vastly less efficient. One of the ways they killed power was increase the quench. Many had a quench greater than 0.100" which greatly decreases efficiency and increases harmful emissions. The thing now is, they have to do everything they can think of to meet the government standards. The vast majority of new car buyers will NOT keep that vehicle for the entire warranty period and they know this. Most new vehicles will be on their 2nd, 3rd and sometimes 4th owner before the warranty is up and anything during that can often be argued as previous owner negligence. The spec will get most users past all the warranty area where it just becomes a service bill for three manufacturer and this is why most manufacturers have separate specs for vehicles depending on use. If the 5w20 example was an engineer's decision and the only "right" oil for Fords engines, why'd they respec the 6.2 to 5w30 instead the off the 5w20 it came factory with? Engine warranty claims. The new 18 and 19 5.0s could very potentially become re-spec'd in the same way if they keep burning up engines at this rate

szym

Read the whole thread....I posted a tsb bulletin where thhey did .

One more time
Technical Service Bulletin
Ref Number: 02-1-9 Date of issue: Jan 21, 2002

Description:
Engine - Engine Oil - Recommended applications for SAE 5W-20 and SAE 5W-30 motor oils.

Issue:
Ford Motor Company now recommends SAE 5W-20 viscosity grade for servicing most gasoline and flexible fuel vehicles.

Action:
All 2001 and 2002 vehicles where SAE 5W-20 is specified should be serviced at the recommended oil change intervals using SAE 5W-20.
This oil is an improved formulation to improve fuel economy.
Testing has validated this viscosity grade can be used in many previous model year vehicles.
It is recommended all vehicles on the following Vehicle Application Listing be serviced with SAE 5W-20.
All 2001-2002 vehicles other than those listed in the "Exception 2001 Vehicles" or "Exception 2002 Vehicles" chart are being filled with SAE 5W-20 motor oil at the factory and should also be serviced with SAE 5W-20."


*********
words.....they are important
they say can be used...they do not say better for the engine....or for longevity...they do say for " fuel economy "

szym

Here is a cut and paste from a boutique oil producer ....ads removed




Here are the technical facts behind 5W-20 and 0W-20 oil specs:

Question: My owners manual specifies 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil. Do I really need to use 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil and why did my 2000 model year vehicle require a 5W-30 oil, while the exact same engine in my 2001, 2002 and newer engines "requires" a 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil?

Answer: NO! You do not need to use a 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil. Do not let your dealer scare you by telling you that you have to use 5W-20 oil for your warranty. That is a tactic that some dealerships use to scare customers. Once you know the facts and the Federal Magnusson Moss Act law, you will be much better informed to protect your rights and use the type of fluids you want to use.

The main reason 5W-20 or 0W-20 oil was specified for your engine is to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government. CAFE is the combined average fuel economy of all of a vehicle manufacturers product line. Minimum CAFE levels are specified by the Federal Government. In order for a vehicle manufacturer to continue selling profitable large trucks and SUV's, which typically have poor fuel mileage ratings, as compared to smaller cars, and still meet mandated CAFE requirements, they must also sell enough of the smaller cars which have much better fuel economy ratings to offset the poor fuel economy ratings of the larger vehicles. For model year 2001, the change to a 5W-20 oil will allow Honda and Ford's overall CAFE to increase by a very small amount, typically in the tenths of a mile per gallon range. 5W-20 oil is a lighter viscosity than a 5W-30 oil and therefore has less internal engine frictional losses, or less drag on the crankshaft, pistons and valvetrain, which in turn promotes increased fuel economy. This increased fuel economy is virtually undetectable to the average motorist without the use of specialized engine monitoring and testing equipment under strictly controlled test track driving when compared to a 5W-30, 10W-30 or a 0W-30 viscosity motor oil.


Question: Could using a 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30 or even a 10W-40 or 20W-50, oil in my vehicle which specifies a 5W-20 oil void my new car warranty?

Answer: Absolutely not. Vehicle manufacturers only recommend using motor oils meeting certain viscosity grades and American Petroleum Institute service requirements. Whether a motor oil is a 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30, 0W-30, 10W-40 or 20W-50 (for racing and high performance applications in, for example, a Cobra R Mustang) or even a synthetic vs. a petroleum based oil will not affect warranty coverage. The manufacturer is required by Federal Law to cover all equipment failures it would normally cover as long as the oil meets API service requirements and specifications and was not the cause of failure. In addition, the Federally mandated Magnuson - Moss Act states that a manufacturer may not require a specific brand or type of aftermarket product unless it is provided free of charge. If your dealership continues to tell you that you must use 5W-20 motor oil and or/ a specific brand of 5W-20 motor oil, then ask them to put it in writing. Their position is inaccurate, and, in fact violates existing law.*

Additionally, if there is ever a question of whether or not a particular motor oil was the cause of an engine failure make sure to get a sample of the used oil in a clean bottle, typically 6 oz. minimum. The oil can then be sent to two independent testing labs for analysis. This is standard procedure for most commercial vehicles, trucking, construction/excavation and fleet companies and there are numerous certified test labs all over the country. Remember, a knowledgeable and informed consumer is your best defense against being taken advantage of by a car dealership service center.

Nicklaus

@River1 Here is what I'm saying. CAFE is all about fleet average fuel economy. Here is an exctract from sciencedirect.com:

CAFE Standard

The Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standard regulates the average fuel economy of new vehicles sold in the United States. CAFE standards work by establishing a required fuel economy for the entire fleet of new vehicles (in miles per gallon), with separate standards established for passenger cars and light trucks. Vehicle manufacturers are required to have a sales-weighted average fuel economy that meets or exceeds these fuel economy targets, or pay a penalty that is a function of both their total sales and fuel economy shortfall.



The following extract represents a good indication about CAFE design influence:


If CAFE standards are high, and are accompanied by large penalties for violation, then they can influence vehicle design decisions in a way that steers the set of available vehicles away from the optimal set determined by the market based on consumer preferences, potentially leading to fewer new vehicle purchases.



Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...e-fuel-economy



Vehicle design elements influenced by CAFE: auto/start stop, Variable Cylinder Displacement, Battery Monitoring system, oil viscosity, etc...

Montuckyf150

Quebecois huh? Not my first rodeo I own an oil change business. So I use what I know works. Both my ecoboosts work for a living, I don’t go get groceries and make fun of people on the internet in mine. You are coming off like an *** in this post or at least in your response to my post. It must be the Quebecois....

in case your post was just lost in translation My wife gets 19mpg pulling a raft trailer and we’ve gotten 14.5 mpg on our last trip pulling out 4000lbs airstream. I use this oil because in turbo applications oil breaks down so a 30 weight breaks down from there. Also it’s a true Full Synthetic and it has @-60 degree C pour point. Turbos like oil, oil flows slow in winter.

In my second ecoboost that is a T150 it has @3000lbs in it at all times and I average 17-27 mpg depending on how I drive.
I also run this oil in my turbo Subaru with 215000 miles and my 2012 outback.
Use whatever oil makes you happy life is to short to argue about oil.