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balancer installed, shift points raised

 
Old 04-13-2019, 01:08 AM
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Default balancer installed, shift points raised

And it basically went 2 tenths slower! Best it could muster tonight was a 12:10 @ 114. Raised them again and it went 12:20. Raised them again and added a little timing and it went a 12:18 @ 113. Conditions were similar to the last time we went to the track. The truck was basically .2 slower in the 1/8 mile. Best 60 was a 1.75, last time a 1.70.

The new balancer does weigh a little more than the one we removed, but it can't be much. Hard to believe it would make .2 difference.

We're a little stumped. I had Matt (my tuner) there and we looked at all the datalogs and everything is right where it should be. DA was like 2100 or something like that, I think it was 2000 last time we went. The maf readings are good and it's making power, throttle isn't closing on the shifts, and the timing is good, fuel trims all look good.

Clue me in.....I honestly expected a 11.7 at least.

I'm not sure what to do next....E85, or torque converter maybe. Let me hear it. I'm really disappointed as I was expecting to be in BadCon's neighborhood in the 11.6 to 11.7 territory.

Is it the Gen I heads and cams are that much inferior to the Gen II stuff? I want a solid 11 second truck. What would you guys do next?
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Old 04-13-2019, 01:43 AM
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Wow, that is really surprising, I figured you'd be upper mid 11's with just a little more RPM. However, some important information was gained tonight...it tells us you are not making much power up top, not enough to benefit from a higher shift point. My truck shifts upwards of 7500rpm because its making power all the way to redline, but in your case it might be falling on its face upwards of 7000....which means you are falling off the power harder then you would had it shifted early. Its all about maximizing the area under the curve....less area = less speed.

Before we get into what parts to add, there are a few things that could be restricting the top end. Are you getting any supercharger belt slip? Do the boost numbers remain stable all the way to redline? Is it pulling any timing up top? A look at the log would answer some questions.

As for more power, cams would help it breath up top and that is one of the bigger differences between your engine and mine, as the gen 2 F150 Coyote's got cams near as good as the Mustang. You could add a 72mm pulley, which would give you around 13psi of peak boost...I typically see 12lbs or so at WOT. That is the limit until belt slip really becomes an issue with the smaller pulleys.

Honestly reflecting on all this, I don't think there is anything "wrong" with your truck....it might just be about horsepower. When I had a 75mm pulley and my stock y-pipe into a single 3" exhaust, it dynoed at 540whp and would run upper 11's and sometimes low 12's on my Dragy device with a personal best of 11.65 in good air near my house. In SAR that would probably be an 11.9, as the air down there is crap. After the 72mm pulley swap, new injectors/pump, and a catless y-pipe, I've run a personal best of 11.46 near my house on the dragy, and 11.62 at SAR. Our trucks are probably similar weight as mine, while aluminum, is also a 4x4 and with my fat *** in it is probably closer to 4900lbs race weight.


If it makes you feel any better, my truck got slower with the finalized tune as we lowered the shift points in the interest of safety....it is my daily after all.

Last edited by BadCon; 04-13-2019 at 01:46 AM.
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Old 04-13-2019, 01:59 AM
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I don't have a boost gauge...but, there was no apparent belt slip or loss of power judging by the maf readings and others. It's not pulling any timing. In fact I did your trick and added 1/2 can of boostane professional. ait2f's are superb, not pulling any timing there. On tip in in first gear, the timing would drop some to -4 I think, however this wasn't changed from the first time to the track to now. He did adjust the tip in timing some but it didn't appear to make much difference it would drop some on the shifts, which I believe is torque management in interest of not smoking the transmission...what I was told anyway.

But you're right, before throwing more money at it, I would like to figure out what to do next, beside moving the shift points back down perhaps. They're suggesting a new fuel pump and injectors and going E85, but I'm not sure that would be more effective than a torque converter.

Maybe I should swap in a Gen II coyote motor. Used low mileage ones are $2600 to $2800 locally, from what I've seen. Maybe that's the best option.
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Old 04-13-2019, 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by rojizostang View Post
I don't have a boost gauge...but, there was no apparent belt slip or loss of power judging by the maf readings and others. It's not pulling any timing. In fact I did your trick and added 1/2 can of boostane professional. ait2f's are superb, not pulling any timing there. On tip in in first gear, the timing would drop some to -4 I think, however this wasn't changed from the first time to the track to now. He did adjust the tip in timing some but it didn't appear to make much difference it would drop some on the shifts, which I believe is torque management in interest of not smoking the transmission...what I was told anyway.

But you're right, before throwing more money at it, I would like to figure out what to do next, beside moving the shift points back down perhaps. They're suggesting a new fuel pump and injectors and going E85, but I'm not sure that would be more effective than a torque converter.

Maybe I should swap in a Gen II coyote motor. Used low mileage ones are $2600 to $2800 locally, from what I've seen. Maybe that's the best option.
A full fuel system with E85 is the cheapest way to add power at this point, and would net you probably 80hp or more for about $2500 with money for a total re-tune factored in. The labor is easy and you could do that yourself. But you'd be living dangerously with the OPG and your stock rods. There are plenty of Mustang guys roaming around with bone stock gen 1's and 650whp+, but there are also plenty of failures at those power levels too. The gen 2 is stronger in most regards and with the engine out you could easily install the OPG, ending up with a motor capable of 800whp should you decide to go crazy in the future.
What I don't know is if your current Roush blower will translate to a gen 2 coyote. I don't see why it wouldn't, but you'd have to research that a little.

I'll sell you my truck lol
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Old 04-13-2019, 02:27 AM
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what injectors would I need? ford racing 80lbs or the ID1000s. The ID1000's are crazy expensive. The 80lb ford racing can be had in the $400 range. Which fuel pump would I go with? They said they wouldn't charge me for a total retune as a lot of the leg work has been done. Probably an hour on the dyno with the new pump and injectors and they could dial it in.

having said all that, should I have them move the shift points back down, or leave them as is in anticipation of a fuel system upgrade?
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Old 04-13-2019, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by rojizostang View Post
what injectors would I need? ford racing 80lbs or the ID1000s. The ID1000's are crazy expensive. The 80lb ford racing can be had in the $400 range. Which fuel pump would I go with? They said they wouldn't charge me for a total retune as a lot of the leg work has been done. Probably an hour on the dyno with the new pump and injectors and they could dial it in.

having said all that, should I have them move the shift points back down, or leave them as is in anticipation of a fuel system upgrade?
What is it shifting at now? E85 isn't necessarily going to extend your power band, just inflate it across the board as you can run more timing.

I'm personally running Deatschwerks DW95 injectors, and they are $700 full price for a set and are equivalent to 1000cc injectors. Idle quality is fine and I still get good fuel economy and the tuning data is readily available online. I'm also running a DW400 fuel pump ($250), which is good for around 700hp on E85, though to really take advantage of E85 you'll want to throw a boost-a-pump on top of the DW400. Dorian is running a single DW400 and a BAP. However BAP's are not good for pumps long term....they make them run hotter, and burnout is an issue if you run low fuel levels. A full return style fuel system would be best, but expect to spend at least $1500 retail....or around $1000 if you assemble your own dual pump system using quality components. The absolute cheapest way would be DW95 injectors, DW400 pump, and a VMP fixed 18v BAP. which would be about $1300. Deatschwerks actually rates the DW400 pump to 18v....so it might not have any issues at those power levels and you can give them a call to get the final word. With that setup I think you'd be fine running E85 with the 75mm pulley. You can also throw in a 72mm pulley for another couple pounds of boost with E85.

At that point I'd probably keep the shift points below 7000 just in the interest of safety. However if you pop a rod, then its the perfect time to install a gen 2 .
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Old 04-13-2019, 02:56 AM
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it's shifting around 6900, and he advised to leave it there as the injectors at that rpm are at 100% duty cycle.

I don't know, maybe I should move the shift points back some and install perhaps the 72mm pulley, the pump you recommended and the ford racing injectors and stay on 93. That along with lowered shift points would at least get me consistently in the 11.8-11.9 range. Perhaps even the stock fuel pump would be sufficient for a 72mm pully and injector upgrade.

He's supposed to give me a ballpark figure. I want to stay returnless if possible, just for the cost savings.

btw I appreciate your advice
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Old 04-13-2019, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rojizostang View Post
it's shifting around 6900, and he advised to leave it there as the injectors at that rpm are at 100% duty cycle.

I don't know, maybe I should move the shift points back some and install perhaps the 72mm pulley, the pump you recommended and the ford racing injectors and stay on 93. That along with lowered shift points would at least get me consistently in the 11.8-11.9 range. Perhaps even the stock fuel pump would be sufficient for a 72mm pully and injector upgrade.

He's supposed to give me a ballpark figure. I want to stay returnless if possible, just for the cost savings.

btw I appreciate your advice
I have heard the 80lb Ford Racing injectors have drivability issues, and tuners don't like them. The 56lb Ford Racing Injectors are what came stock on the Trinity powered 2013-14 Cobra's, and will meet the 93 octane fuel requirements but have no head room for future E85 usage.

Do the injectors and the pump, 72mm pulley, and 93 octane, leave the shift points where they are at. The pump is an extra $250, not a hard install, and gives you plenty of overhead for as much power as your engine will tolerate on 93 octane (pumps rated at 1000hp on 93 lol). That's my exact setup, and aside from slightly more cranking on hot starts, I've noticed no impact from the pump or injectors. I'll be adding an inline check valve to combat the extended cranks by keeping fuel pressure in the lines after shut off, following Unbroken's instructions posted on this forum. However you can buy a pump with the check valve built in, just call DW directly. I told my tuner I wanted the pump with the internal check valve, but he ordered the regular pump instead. Oh well...

I posted about a issue with these pumps where the power connector does not latch properly....so find that thread and make sure the damn plug stays connected or else you'll be dropping the tank a second time. First time you take the tank off it'll be a bitch...second time will take you 15 minutes.

The only other big difference between our trucks is I have a dual 67mm throttle body. Positive displacement superchargers hate intake restriction, so anything you do to open up the intake system before the blower will reap HP rewards. However the throttle body is not cheap, and I noted some driveability differences between it and the stock GT500 throttle body that comes with the Roush kit, and I'm not exactly sure how much power if any it will add to your setup when you are RPM restricted below 7000. I'd probably leave it be, as the GT500 throttle body just drives better IMO, with less boost surge at part throttle and flows enough to get you to 550-600whp, which is the power you need to get the times you want.

Last edited by BadCon; 04-13-2019 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 04-13-2019, 06:12 AM
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Thanks, there's a lot of food for thought there. Seriously.
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Old 04-13-2019, 11:19 AM
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I have a kenne bell boost a pump laying around i just took off my truck. As far as Gt500 throttle body's go look on sum mustang forums such as svt performance you can pick up a use one for a decent price. Do you have a copy of your dyno graph? That would help with the question of where your power starts falling off and setting up the shift points.
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