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As with most motor "issues" (and all motors have issues) these problems with the Phasers are few and far between. The internet would make you think more have problems than don't.
While I agree we should talk about them and be aware of potential problems, folks shouldn't be worried about it and sleep well tonight.
The odds are in your favor in not ever having a problem with them.
I've seen several 5.0 Phaser failures lately. First was Bank 2 Exhaust Phaser. Set P0016 for B2 Exhaust cam over retarded. This was probably a month ago. It was under warranty with 30k ish miles. No I have another 2015 Lariat 5.0 with a P0012 for the Bank 1 intake Phaser over retarded. This one has 73k on it. Hopefully this isn't a trend. This one isn't under warranty and right fully so the owner isn't happy about the repair cost. I can actually watch it jump with IDS from -5 degrees to -55-60 degrees. That's 50 degree difference between PCM desired and actual angle!! Ordered parts Thursday and then he decided to replace all four. I suggested atleast one Bank. So I'm waiting on more coyote parts....
I hate to revive an old thread but I was hoping the author of this post would be willing to share their diagnostic procedure for determining the exhaust side failure. I've got two scatterplots added that show total fuel trim and exhaust side VCT error vs RPM. I'm seeing a fairly high degree (exhaust only, intake looks reasonable) of error just off of idle which would suggest to me that either the solenoids are slow to respond or there's blockage causing lower oil pressure at low RPM's. Dealer claims they did HK11 and it passed. No faults. To me the amount of error seems somewhat concerning along with the excessively lean trims (air charge passing right through due to excess overlap maybe?). I should add though, calc load is very high at low RPM's which decreases as RPM's increase...and so there's a chance there's a vacuum leak as well. I am somewhat intrigued by the head gasket blockage portion of this thread though because...my coolant tank is low, had some strange occurrences with it as of late (beyond just the hesitation, idle, and bottom end tapping) involving exhaust plumes and lots of water leaking out the exhaust weep holes even after running for awhile. The head gasket anomaly sounds like the one thing that would tie all of this together. I'm trying to get my ducks in a row because I'm really trying to get my truck fixed but Ford has been unwilling to help. I'm going to be doing a complete data log later today to get more data points but if the members that posted these would be willing to jump in and let me know what you saw when doing troubleshooting, it would be really helpful!
im going to need more info of exactly what you have going on. The data logger graphs you posted, while of different scale then what we use with IDS, seem fine to me. Are you after an engine noise? You mentioned low coolant and tapping noises? How low? Has this vehicle had an updated water pump? Was the T connector and upper hose replaced at the same time? Has it ever been run low on coolant? To the point where high fan kicks on randomly, but there is no indication Of an overheat condition by the gauge? Exhaust condensation is of zero concern no matter how much it is, as long as that is all that it is.
While we appreciate ANY help or input at all, thanks, you sound like the dealer. It also sounds like you may have merely glossed over his lengthy but informative post(s).
For example, I have a '16 5.0 XLT SuperCrew that idles fine, runs fine upon distinct acceleration inputs but at a steady-state part throttle regardless of transmission gear and during slight tip-in anywhere between 1400 - 1900ish rpm the engine stumbles. I don't think it spark misfiring, more of a mixture thing. No codes are being thrown, and this has been occurring for the last 6 weeks.
im going to need more info of exactly what you have going on. The data logger graphs you posted, while of different scale then what we use with IDS, seem fine to me. Are you after an engine noise? You mentioned low coolant and tapping noises? How low? Has this vehicle had an updated water pump? Was the T connector and upper hose replaced at the same time? Has it ever been run low on coolant? To the point where high fan kicks on randomly, but there is no indication Of an overheat condition by the gauge? Exhaust condensation is of zero concern no matter how much it is, as long as that is all that it is.
The main questions I would have would be why are lean trims normal along with 20-30 degree phaser deviations at low speeds. If they're normal, that's great, but I have low speed misfires, no lights, a coolant tank that's losing coolant, among other things. If it wasn't sluggish, hesitating and jerking on occasion, I wouldn't be as concerned as I realize some of these conditions are transient. The graph that I posted is a scatterplot with total trim (STFT + LTFT) on bank one along with the exhaust cam's deviation from it's commanded angle vs RPM. From what I understand, it's never acceptable to have a total trim +/- 6% for a period of time, let alone in some cases 30%. Additionally, cams should always be within +/- 10-15 degrees from their commanded position. As you can see there are several occasions where the exhaust cams hit -20. On another logging session, I had minus 40 on that cam. I had a misfire with an intake cam showing that it was off about 20 degrees. I also have been showing spark timing adjustments around these same periods with elevated knock_1 and knock_2 readings (mainly knock_1). So if it's normal, I'm just looking for an explanation as to why...nobody has been able to explain it along with the coolant level reducing (always read when cold). The other issue is that I'm counting misfires each time the vehicle is driven, it's not enough to set a fault, but it's enough to be concerning. Misfires are never normal...except for maybe the occasional one at start-up. These are happening randomly on different cylinders, typically just off idle. I've posted a video in another thread of my vehicle sounding rough at idle, as well.
I could diagnose this myself if it wasn't under warranty, but at the moment, I'm having to put together what I can to get Ford to look into it deeper. If it's normal, I seriously will appreciate the explanation as to why. But I have a hard time believing that the symptoms I'm noticing are the usual...it hasn't always driven this poorly or sounded this poorly.
The water pump has never been replaced. It's not leaking coolant externally. But in the last 3 weeks, the coolant level has gone from being close to the max mark to being at the min mark on a flat surface...while cold. It has 23,000 miles. And exhaust condensation is normal...but we've had thick plumes exit the tail pipe after start up...the kind you can't see through. Those are not normal. We also have a bad heat soak issue where I'll go into a store after driving the vehicle and I'll start it up and the the fan goes to high, the gauge reads 235 deg...quickly cools off and the fan goes down. Again, it may be normal, I just have never encountered these things with other vehicles and had them not be due to a failure of some kind.
I was going to look into cylinder head temp next...I'm still combing through the data from my last log...showing much of the same but this time I also included TCC information to see what's happening when I give it gas. There's a lot of slip when there's not supposed to be. The transmission related stuff I think is unrelated but it exacerbates the other issues.
Last edited by gopherman; May 27, 2018 at 12:32 PM.
So I was curious whether the wdild VCT swings were normal and I remembered FordTechMackuloco did a series on the 3V 5.4 awhile back so I started digging to see if he had any videos of IDS diagnostics and I found this:
He's actually showing faulty OCV's and how VCT error will show up before and after replacement. FordLvr35...I'm not sure if you misread my scatterplot (scale shouldn't matter...and does IDS actually allow you to do a scatter vs. RPM anyway?) but at least looking at what's considered normal operation, my vehicle's values are not at all normal. Nor does it drive normally at all. It's actually probably worse than what I'm showing too because Forscan's sampling rate is not even close to IDS. Nevertheless, 40+ degree, even 20 degree errors are not normal...and according to my understanding of how a fault is determined, EWMA has to exceed 15 degrees. Essentially meaning, it has to happen for a very long time to accumulate enough to set a fault. My hunch is that at hot idle, the oil is either too thin or is contaminated/obstructed causing reduced pressure to the actuators. The sound at idle sounds exactly like a 5.4 at idle. Or my PCM is not calibrated correctly which would explain a number of other occurrences. I was able to find another FordTechMackuloco video in that series demonstrating the sound.
I think you are looking into this entirely too deeply. A misfire that is undetected by the highly sensitive misfire monitor system will not be found by comparing fuel trims to camshaft timing. I see nothing wrong with the graphs you posted. I’m not sure why you do. I’d want to see actual timing per bank vs desired timing for said bank. You speak of -20 to 40 degree can shaft variations. Especially at low speeds. This is all indicative of proper operation. You realize that varying the cam timing is for performance AND emissions, right? There is zero possibility of cam timing being off that far without immediate setting of timing codes. Typically P0012 thru P0019. Base engine is easily confirmed by compression and leak down. Tip in issues are typically ignition timing or fuel delivery management. I’d be looking into APP, ETB, MAP issues first. Especially with no codes. Another tell tale is OBD Mode 6. Are you capable of retrieving this? This will give you all the info you need for the last 10 drive cycles. Most notably in this case, misfire monitor results by individual cylinder, and catalyst damage percentages by bank, as a result of the misfires, if any.
Last edited by FordLvr35; May 27, 2018 at 01:06 PM.
