10 speed torque convertor lockup
11-01-2020, 09:04 PM
#11
Senior Member
11-02-2020, 06:46 AM
#12
All newer automatics want to lock the TC as quickly as possible for efficiency, and generally they will unlock or partially unlock (allow slip) between gearshifts to smooth things out. Our 10R80 is generally locked by 3rd gear and you feel the shifts more due to the partial/full lock between gearshifts. Just like a manual as the speeds increase and the gear ratios get closer and also taller, the "shift shock" is less apparent.
I believe many folks comment on aftermarket transmission tunes being smoother because the TC lockup strategy is changed and the skip-shifting is also disabled. I notice in my wifes Explorer with the same 10 speed albeit the lighter duty version, the vehicle does not skip-shift on normal acceleration like the F-150 and the torque converter lockup is less aggressive providing a much smoother experience.
I believe many folks comment on aftermarket transmission tunes being smoother because the TC lockup strategy is changed and the skip-shifting is also disabled. I notice in my wifes Explorer with the same 10 speed albeit the lighter duty version, the vehicle does not skip-shift on normal acceleration like the F-150 and the torque converter lockup is less aggressive providing a much smoother experience.
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Mark Miller (11-03-2020)
11-02-2020, 07:06 AM
#13
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All newer automatics want to lock the TC as quickly as possible for efficiency, and generally they will unlock or partially unlock (allow slip) between gearshifts to smooth things out. Our 10R80 is generally locked by 3rd gear and you feel the shifts more due to the partial/full lock between gearshifts. Just like a manual as the speeds increase and the gear ratios get closer and also taller, the "shift shock" is less apparent.
I believe many folks comment on aftermarket transmission tunes being smoother because the TC lockup strategy is changed and the skip-shifting is also disabled. I notice in my wifes Explorer with the same 10 speed albeit the lighter duty version, the vehicle does not skip-shift on normal acceleration like the F-150 and the torque converter lockup is less aggressive providing a much smoother experience.
I believe many folks comment on aftermarket transmission tunes being smoother because the TC lockup strategy is changed and the skip-shifting is also disabled. I notice in my wifes Explorer with the same 10 speed albeit the lighter duty version, the vehicle does not skip-shift on normal acceleration like the F-150 and the torque converter lockup is less aggressive providing a much smoother experience.
Also going to contact Oz Tuning. I have no complaints, just want to know what the truck is actually doing.
10-06-2021, 11:21 PM
#14
Junior Member
I've been wondering about this myself, and can't find any information regarding this subject.
I don't think it locks up in 1st gear, but I'm almost positive it locks in 3rd gear, and maybe stays locked from there? I think it locks in 3rd gear, because I notice that after the 1-3 shift, the RPMs rise, and drop slightly when you're accelerating in 3rd gear, it almost feels like a shift, but you're still in 3rd. I have no doubt that this gearbox has potential to be really good, but the unsophisticated OEM programming leaves a lot to be desired. If normal mode was similar to sport mode, but not as aggressive, it would be excellent. Normal mode loves to lug the engine, and it feels as though it's holding the power back.
I notice that when I have to make a hard stop, there is a slight thud, and I'm sure that's the TC unlocking in a weird way.
I don't think it locks up in 1st gear, but I'm almost positive it locks in 3rd gear, and maybe stays locked from there? I think it locks in 3rd gear, because I notice that after the 1-3 shift, the RPMs rise, and drop slightly when you're accelerating in 3rd gear, it almost feels like a shift, but you're still in 3rd. I have no doubt that this gearbox has potential to be really good, but the unsophisticated OEM programming leaves a lot to be desired. If normal mode was similar to sport mode, but not as aggressive, it would be excellent. Normal mode loves to lug the engine, and it feels as though it's holding the power back.
I notice that when I have to make a hard stop, there is a slight thud, and I'm sure that's the TC unlocking in a weird way.
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johnday in BFE (10-07-2021)
10-07-2021, 08:42 AM
#15
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I believe the torque converter lock up is modulated ( wheel speed, rpm,etc.)-and at the higher gears- this observation is purely seat of pants- ( and mine is a ‘15 with the 6 sp. btw)- example: it upshifts,at low rpm, then “bump” downshift then you feel the converter unlock.
Its the busiest transmission ive ever experienced!!- i believe its all in the power train management. I cant imagine your 10 sp. with all the extra gears to play with!! Just my 2 cents…
Its the busiest transmission ive ever experienced!!- i believe its all in the power train management. I cant imagine your 10 sp. with all the extra gears to play with!! Just my 2 cents…
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johnday in BFE (10-07-2021)
10-07-2021, 02:00 PM
#16
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So yes the new ford 10sp like the GM 10, 8 and 6 before them all can shift gears with the TC locked up, or with it unlocked. Now despite popular mythos it will not shift gears with it "slipping" - I don't know where that comes from.
How and why - as said the goal is to lock up to get the efficiency up. and the new trans unlike the slushbox of old has clutch packs between some of the gear sets as it transitions gear sets it's pre selecting the next move - prior to you getting to the shift point. Yes that's right it's planned ahead just a touch.
so those gear sets - when you are easy on throttle and ride though a 4th to 6th or even 7th transition - it might because the torque throughput is low - leave the TC locked, and slip the clutch pack between the 4th gear set and the 6th gear set as it goes in. wet clutches tolerate this with ease.
If on the other hand you are hammer down and out or if you are towing something real - torque throughput change is higher and it will unlock - change - lock for safety of parts.
and decisions like that are made in miliseconds before you get to the shift point. actually in tow/haul or in sport mode it will less likely shift with the TC locked. As far as I know it will not ever shift out of 1 2 or 3 with the tc locked, but I'm not 100% sure of that.
How and why - as said the goal is to lock up to get the efficiency up. and the new trans unlike the slushbox of old has clutch packs between some of the gear sets as it transitions gear sets it's pre selecting the next move - prior to you getting to the shift point. Yes that's right it's planned ahead just a touch.
so those gear sets - when you are easy on throttle and ride though a 4th to 6th or even 7th transition - it might because the torque throughput is low - leave the TC locked, and slip the clutch pack between the 4th gear set and the 6th gear set as it goes in. wet clutches tolerate this with ease.
If on the other hand you are hammer down and out or if you are towing something real - torque throughput change is higher and it will unlock - change - lock for safety of parts.
and decisions like that are made in miliseconds before you get to the shift point. actually in tow/haul or in sport mode it will less likely shift with the TC locked. As far as I know it will not ever shift out of 1 2 or 3 with the tc locked, but I'm not 100% sure of that.
10-07-2021, 02:13 PM
#17
Senior Member
A few notes:
TC Lockup occurs in 2-6 in the 6R80, and 1-10 in the 10r80.
The TCC solenoid is modulated to ramp the TC lockup engagement, so lockup is not harsh.
The TC is unlocked for shifts, and (obviously) while stopped.
The TC is locked at all other times except: it will disengage to increase rpm's for more power. This mostly occurs at lower rpms where the engine has the least power available. Inside the powerband (ex 3000rpm+ for the ecos), the TC will largely remain locked when not enough throttle is being commanded to warrant a downshift.
TC Lockup occurs in 2-6 in the 6R80, and 1-10 in the 10r80.
The TCC solenoid is modulated to ramp the TC lockup engagement, so lockup is not harsh.
The TC is unlocked for shifts, and (obviously) while stopped.
The TC is locked at all other times except: it will disengage to increase rpm's for more power. This mostly occurs at lower rpms where the engine has the least power available. Inside the powerband (ex 3000rpm+ for the ecos), the TC will largely remain locked when not enough throttle is being commanded to warrant a downshift.
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bigtim3727 (10-08-2021)
10-15-2021, 05:57 PM
#18
Senior Member
unless ford changed the logic significantly from the GM 8L90E then yes the 10sp would allow shifting with the torque converter locked up. That's one of the big changes in the GM transmission. It's how they got efficient.
not also how it will windmill when off the throttle or depending on cruise settings, and it will downshift while windmilling to keep the rpms up so as to keep the direct fuel cutoff active.
not also how it will windmill when off the throttle or depending on cruise settings, and it will downshift while windmilling to keep the rpms up so as to keep the direct fuel cutoff active.
10-18-2021, 10:23 PM
#20
I found this report fascinating for the 3.5L 2nd gen and 10 speed.
There are a lot of details but they also cover shifting patterns and TC lockup. Well worth a read if you want to understand more about the powertrain.
For example I learned why on a cold start the idle sound changes at 60 seconds exactly (page 39).
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.go...nts/812520.pdf
There are a lot of details but they also cover shifting patterns and TC lockup. Well worth a read if you want to understand more about the powertrain.
For example I learned why on a cold start the idle sound changes at 60 seconds exactly (page 39).
https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.go...nts/812520.pdf
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johnday in BFE (10-19-2021)