Another towing question
01-17-2019, 05:44 PM
#11
Grumpy Old Man
Somebody needs to get a copy of SAE J2807-201602 and read through it to determine whether or not any additional weight is calculated into the GVWR.
I found the following statement in an article regarding the J2807 standard, ...
In addition to a vehicle’s base curb weight, the “Tow Vehicle Total Weight” (TVTW) for testing for ¾- and 1-ton trucks allocates 150 pounds for the driver, 150 pounds for a passenger, the weight of all tow package equipment, and 100 pounds of optional equipment (hitch ball, weight distribution bars, and such) split evenly between the front and rear axles.
I found the following statement in an article regarding the J2807 standard, ...
In addition to a vehicle’s base curb weight, the “Tow Vehicle Total Weight” (TVTW) for testing for ¾- and 1-ton trucks allocates 150 pounds for the driver, 150 pounds for a passenger, the weight of all tow package equipment, and 100 pounds of optional equipment (hitch ball, weight distribution bars, and such) split evenly between the front and rear axles.
When testing for J2907, they do not load the tow vehicle to the GVWR. They load it as above, then tie on a trailer that will result in gross combined weight of the GCWR being tested. The tongue weight (TW) is adjusted so it's 10% of the gross trailer weight. If the TW of the trailer causes the GVWR of the tow vehicle to be exceeded, then the vehicle fails the test.
So if you load more than a 150-pound driver, 150-pound passenger, and 100-pound WDH in your tow vehicle when towing, then the GCWR and tow rating are overstated. Also, the standard assumes only 10% TW, but TW of TTs average 13%. You cannot reach the GCWR or tow rating without being overloaded if you load the normal family and tools and camping stuff in the tow vehicle while towing a properly-loaded TT.
Last edited by smokeywren; 01-17-2019 at 05:49 PM.
01-20-2019, 12:40 AM
#14
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Thanks for all the replies folks. We are likely going to buy this truck. The trailer we want to get is a Winnebago Minnie 2455BHS or similar. It is 27' long and 7000lbs GVWR (5300 dry). Based on the numbers of this truck and what you all have told me, we should be good to go. If not, please let me know.
Again, thanks much.
Again, thanks much.
01-20-2019, 09:17 AM
#15
Senior Member
You are off to a good start with the door post stickers. Said to have Max Tow but lack of Load Range E tires suggests it does not have Max Payload. Which lands us in no-man's land of undefined properties when studying the 2018 Tow Guide.
A 3.5EB with 3.73 and Max Tow and Max Payload has a GCWR of 17,000 or 17,100 pounds. Your door post sticker indicates 7,000 GVWR. Presumably GVWR is reached with 1780 pounds of stuff, then you have 10,000 or 10,100 pounds of GCWR remaining for the trailer except for the need to carry 10% of the trailer on the hitch which leaves about 780 pounds for passengers and stuff.
My 2.7EB with 3.55 is GCWR 12,800, GVWR 6,500. But door sticker allows (about) 1,950 pounds of payload.
A 3.5EB with 3.73 and Max Tow and Max Payload has a GCWR of 17,000 or 17,100 pounds. Your door post sticker indicates 7,000 GVWR. Presumably GVWR is reached with 1780 pounds of stuff, then you have 10,000 or 10,100 pounds of GCWR remaining for the trailer except for the need to carry 10% of the trailer on the hitch which leaves about 780 pounds for passengers and stuff.
My 2.7EB with 3.55 is GCWR 12,800, GVWR 6,500. But door sticker allows (about) 1,950 pounds of payload.
01-20-2019, 09:10 PM
#16
Senior Member
Gross vehicle weight is real easy, yours say’s 7000 lbs so fill your fuel tank and go to a scale and weigh it then subtract that from the 7000 lb gvwr and that is how much you can add, everything that you load in the truck and sits on those tires counts. You are probably going to go over gvwr long before you get to the tow capacity.
01-20-2019, 10:55 PM
#17
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1,780 payload minus the weight of you, your wife, and anyone else in the vehicle, minus the weight of any stuff you bring, family pet, floor mats or bedliner you add after purchase, minus 100 pounds for a weight distribution hitch.
Take the result and divide by 0.13 for 13% average hitch weight.
Example:
You weight 200, wife weighs 110, two kids weigh 150 total, dog weighs 50, new bedliner and floor mats weigh 50 total and a 25 pound cooler.
200+110+150+50+50+25=585 + 100 pound wdh = 685
1,780 - 685 = 1,095
1,095 / .13 = 8,423 for the fully loaded trailer. That means your brand new dry trailer plus batteries, propane tanks, linens, clothes, food, ... Roughly a dry trailer weight of 7,000.
Other restrictions - your hitch has a max weight printed on it that would be the limit IF you were in the truck alone before payload was hit.
There are also limits for axles, but payload is usually hit first.
People have also discussed how the length of a trailer can be an issue, you'll see that referenced in some posts when someone says they want to get say a 34 foot trailer and everyone says too long.
Hope this helps.
Take the result and divide by 0.13 for 13% average hitch weight.
Example:
You weight 200, wife weighs 110, two kids weigh 150 total, dog weighs 50, new bedliner and floor mats weigh 50 total and a 25 pound cooler.
200+110+150+50+50+25=585 + 100 pound wdh = 685
1,780 - 685 = 1,095
1,095 / .13 = 8,423 for the fully loaded trailer. That means your brand new dry trailer plus batteries, propane tanks, linens, clothes, food, ... Roughly a dry trailer weight of 7,000.
Other restrictions - your hitch has a max weight printed on it that would be the limit IF you were in the truck alone before payload was hit.
There are also limits for axles, but payload is usually hit first.
People have also discussed how the length of a trailer can be an issue, you'll see that referenced in some posts when someone says they want to get say a 34 foot trailer and everyone says too long.
Hope this helps.
01-21-2019, 01:32 PM
#18
Senior Member
This is a personal limit based on experience. I don't believe there is a "rated" length limit anywhere.
Personally for me on boxed trailers like RVs and enclosed car trailers it's 30 ft for a tag trailer and 32 ft for a fifth wheel. This assumes towing on open highway at highway speeds getting beat up by big rigs and experiencing cross winds.
Longer enclosed trailers mean more sail area. This sail area catches wind and side load forces and the mass of the tow vehicle should be increased (More Truck) in order to counter those forces and feel more "planted".
The downside to the all aluminum F150 is its light weight. It just does not feel as "Planted" as larger trucks especially with large trailers in cross wind situations.
Again, this is a personal limit and opinion based on experience.
Personally for me on boxed trailers like RVs and enclosed car trailers it's 30 ft for a tag trailer and 32 ft for a fifth wheel. This assumes towing on open highway at highway speeds getting beat up by big rigs and experiencing cross winds.
Longer enclosed trailers mean more sail area. This sail area catches wind and side load forces and the mass of the tow vehicle should be increased (More Truck) in order to counter those forces and feel more "planted".
The downside to the all aluminum F150 is its light weight. It just does not feel as "Planted" as larger trucks especially with large trailers in cross wind situations.
Again, this is a personal limit and opinion based on experience.
01-23-2019, 09:49 AM
#19
I tow a 37 ft, 9,900 lbs max trailer with a 1/2 ton HDPP, and you have some people who try to tell me my trailer is too long, truck too light, trailer too heavy, etc, but those same people never said they've towed a long heavy trailer with a newer HDPP truck either.
Personally, I wouldn't tow my trailer with a F-150 Max Tow, nor would I tow my trailer with my truck without stiffer heavy duty trailer tires.
My trailer tires are at least twice the sidewall thickness and twice the sidewall stiffness of those flimsy China bomb tires. My trailer doesn't move around from side to side in the lane causing the truck to wiggle around, and even with my WDH, I believe the trailer with China bombs would cause that unplanted and unstable feeling most complain about, and definitely if my truck had P rated tires and that soft Maax Tow suspension.
I believe ~30 ft may be the upper limit for most off the lot 1/2 ton especially with those P rated tires, soft suspension and those flimsy China bombs on the trailer, and it probably would take a heavier truck to feel planted and stable with a long trailer.
The weight of my truck shows up in over 30 mph winds, and some passing big rigs only gives a pushing sensation, but no suckling in, and no swaying or rocking side to side movements.
I'm sure a heavier truck allows for towing in higher wind speed and probably not feeling any pushing sensation at all.
Personally, I wouldn't tow my trailer with a F-150 Max Tow, nor would I tow my trailer with my truck without stiffer heavy duty trailer tires.
My trailer tires are at least twice the sidewall thickness and twice the sidewall stiffness of those flimsy China bomb tires. My trailer doesn't move around from side to side in the lane causing the truck to wiggle around, and even with my WDH, I believe the trailer with China bombs would cause that unplanted and unstable feeling most complain about, and definitely if my truck had P rated tires and that soft Maax Tow suspension.
I believe ~30 ft may be the upper limit for most off the lot 1/2 ton especially with those P rated tires, soft suspension and those flimsy China bombs on the trailer, and it probably would take a heavier truck to feel planted and stable with a long trailer.
The weight of my truck shows up in over 30 mph winds, and some passing big rigs only gives a pushing sensation, but no suckling in, and no swaying or rocking side to side movements.
I'm sure a heavier truck allows for towing in higher wind speed and probably not feeling any pushing sensation at all.
Last edited by Maury82; 01-23-2019 at 09:57 AM.