The Final Repair Guide to 5.4 Cam Phaser Tick/Knock Sound
06-22-2018, 05:59 PM
#3471
I have a few questions regarding the ticking and the phasers. First of all, what kind of problems can it cause other than the irritating noise? I assume by most of what I've read that it should be fixed, but haven't seen it being a detrimental issue. The noise is annoying and I would like to fix it, but I'm trying to prioritize the fixes I'm placing on my 2006 5.4. I love this truck and want it to go as long as possible. I'm currently at 186,000 miles.
Another question is can the issue with the camshaft phasers cause issues with coils and spark plugs. I have had issues with my spark plugs' porcelain cracking and causing misfires, but I believe this was happening prior to my camshaft phasers ticking, can't remember for sure though. When I took the truck to the mechanic for a misfire issue (which I'm sure was another cracked porcelain on a spark plug), he said that it was because of the phaser issue. I have never seen this mentioned in any of these threads and just wondered if any of you have had this experience. Another note on the spark plugs, this truck now has single unit spark plugs, not the original type that had tendencies to break on removal.
I'm not a skilled mechanic, know just enough to get myself in trouble. I'd appreciate any input that you all might have.
Another question is can the issue with the camshaft phasers cause issues with coils and spark plugs. I have had issues with my spark plugs' porcelain cracking and causing misfires, but I believe this was happening prior to my camshaft phasers ticking, can't remember for sure though. When I took the truck to the mechanic for a misfire issue (which I'm sure was another cracked porcelain on a spark plug), he said that it was because of the phaser issue. I have never seen this mentioned in any of these threads and just wondered if any of you have had this experience. Another note on the spark plugs, this truck now has single unit spark plugs, not the original type that had tendencies to break on removal.
I'm not a skilled mechanic, know just enough to get myself in trouble. I'd appreciate any input that you all might have.
06-23-2018, 10:22 AM
#3472
LightningRod
IMPENDING timing issues? Maybe - When?
Disclaimer: I am not a skilled mechanic either. Just enough to keep all the vehicles I've owned running way up into the years (20-ish) and miles (200-350k).
[_] Check this box confirming you have read and understand this disclaimer. LOL
I believe you are nearing a very FAIR and REASONABLE life span for steel timing chains (no matter what kind of vehicle it is). The 5.4 has very LONG chains (122 links). A very small amount of wear - in each link - sums up to quiet a bit of stretch. As they stretch, the tensioners reach the point where they cannot take 100% of ALL the slack out. At that point, any misfires or 'Bucking' at low RPM light load slaps the hell out of the plastic chain guides and breaks them. At that point - Stuff goes downhill rapidly. Broken guides debris plugs up Oil Pump Pick-UP screen degrading oil pressure. Chains slap timing cover and other things grinding of steel shavings into the oil. Cam bearings, Phasers, lifters are starved for oil - etc. etc. etc.
The 'tick' and 'Diesel sound' are not a problem. They are merely an indicator of things to come. If you have chain rattle upon startup for a few seconds - you are at the point you SHOULD do a timing job before long. My timing sounds and issues BEGAN around 180k - and I put up with it until 212k miles before timing codes showed up. I believe you are on the same trajectory, but have some time to prepare if you want to keep the truck for the long haul.
As for the MISFIRE issue: Maximum CAM retard occurs at LOW RPM, light load. That draws in maximum exhaust gas recirculation - by design. Exhaust gases mixed with intake 'dilutes' combustion gases and places MAXIMUM STRESS on proper ignition. That is where misfires are MOST likely to occur. But cam timing issues are not functionally, or electrically related in any manner. Try to keep misfires at bay because THEY will lead to broken guides and further timing problems.
You might find some helpful information about cracked spark plug ceramic and HEAT RANGE causing random misfires in these two posts.
https://www.f150forum.com/f4/5-4l-3v...6/#post3930018
https://www.f150online.com/forums/v8...ml#post5161039
Good luck.
[_] Check this box confirming you have read and understand this disclaimer. LOL
I believe you are nearing a very FAIR and REASONABLE life span for steel timing chains (no matter what kind of vehicle it is). The 5.4 has very LONG chains (122 links). A very small amount of wear - in each link - sums up to quiet a bit of stretch. As they stretch, the tensioners reach the point where they cannot take 100% of ALL the slack out. At that point, any misfires or 'Bucking' at low RPM light load slaps the hell out of the plastic chain guides and breaks them. At that point - Stuff goes downhill rapidly. Broken guides debris plugs up Oil Pump Pick-UP screen degrading oil pressure. Chains slap timing cover and other things grinding of steel shavings into the oil. Cam bearings, Phasers, lifters are starved for oil - etc. etc. etc.
The 'tick' and 'Diesel sound' are not a problem. They are merely an indicator of things to come. If you have chain rattle upon startup for a few seconds - you are at the point you SHOULD do a timing job before long. My timing sounds and issues BEGAN around 180k - and I put up with it until 212k miles before timing codes showed up. I believe you are on the same trajectory, but have some time to prepare if you want to keep the truck for the long haul.
As for the MISFIRE issue: Maximum CAM retard occurs at LOW RPM, light load. That draws in maximum exhaust gas recirculation - by design. Exhaust gases mixed with intake 'dilutes' combustion gases and places MAXIMUM STRESS on proper ignition. That is where misfires are MOST likely to occur. But cam timing issues are not functionally, or electrically related in any manner. Try to keep misfires at bay because THEY will lead to broken guides and further timing problems.
You might find some helpful information about cracked spark plug ceramic and HEAT RANGE causing random misfires in these two posts.
https://www.f150forum.com/f4/5-4l-3v...6/#post3930018
https://www.f150online.com/forums/v8...ml#post5161039
Good luck.
Last edited by F150Torqued; 06-23-2018 at 10:25 AM.
06-26-2018, 10:17 AM
#3473
Disclaimer: I am not a skilled mechanic either. Just enough to keep all the vehicles I've owned running way up into the years (20-ish) and miles (200-350k).
[_] Check this box confirming you have read and understand this disclaimer. LOL
I believe you are nearing a very FAIR and REASONABLE life span for steel timing chains (no matter what kind of vehicle it is). The 5.4 has very LONG chains (122 links). A very small amount of wear - in each link - sums up to quiet a bit of stretch. As they stretch, the tensioners reach the point where they cannot take 100% of ALL the slack out. At that point, any misfires or 'Bucking' at low RPM light load slaps the hell out of the plastic chain guides and breaks them. At that point - Stuff goes downhill rapidly. Broken guides debris plugs up Oil Pump Pick-UP screen degrading oil pressure. Chains slap timing cover and other things grinding of steel shavings into the oil. Cam bearings, Phasers, lifters are starved for oil - etc. etc. etc.
The 'tick' and 'Diesel sound' are not a problem. They are merely an indicator of things to come. If you have chain rattle upon startup for a few seconds - you are at the point you SHOULD do a timing job before long. My timing sounds and issues BEGAN around 180k - and I put up with it until 212k miles before timing codes showed up. I believe you are on the same trajectory, but have some time to prepare if you want to keep the truck for the long haul.
As for the MISFIRE issue: Maximum CAM retard occurs at LOW RPM, light load. That draws in maximum exhaust gas recirculation - by design. Exhaust gases mixed with intake 'dilutes' combustion gases and places MAXIMUM STRESS on proper ignition. That is where misfires are MOST likely to occur. But cam timing issues are not functionally, or electrically related in any manner. Try to keep misfires at bay because THEY will lead to broken guides and further timing problems.
You might find some helpful information about cracked spark plug ceramic and HEAT RANGE causing random misfires in these two posts.
https://www.f150forum.com/f4/5-4l-3v...6/#post3930018
https://www.f150online.com/forums/v8...ml#post5161039
Good luck.
[_] Check this box confirming you have read and understand this disclaimer. LOL
I believe you are nearing a very FAIR and REASONABLE life span for steel timing chains (no matter what kind of vehicle it is). The 5.4 has very LONG chains (122 links). A very small amount of wear - in each link - sums up to quiet a bit of stretch. As they stretch, the tensioners reach the point where they cannot take 100% of ALL the slack out. At that point, any misfires or 'Bucking' at low RPM light load slaps the hell out of the plastic chain guides and breaks them. At that point - Stuff goes downhill rapidly. Broken guides debris plugs up Oil Pump Pick-UP screen degrading oil pressure. Chains slap timing cover and other things grinding of steel shavings into the oil. Cam bearings, Phasers, lifters are starved for oil - etc. etc. etc.
The 'tick' and 'Diesel sound' are not a problem. They are merely an indicator of things to come. If you have chain rattle upon startup for a few seconds - you are at the point you SHOULD do a timing job before long. My timing sounds and issues BEGAN around 180k - and I put up with it until 212k miles before timing codes showed up. I believe you are on the same trajectory, but have some time to prepare if you want to keep the truck for the long haul.
As for the MISFIRE issue: Maximum CAM retard occurs at LOW RPM, light load. That draws in maximum exhaust gas recirculation - by design. Exhaust gases mixed with intake 'dilutes' combustion gases and places MAXIMUM STRESS on proper ignition. That is where misfires are MOST likely to occur. But cam timing issues are not functionally, or electrically related in any manner. Try to keep misfires at bay because THEY will lead to broken guides and further timing problems.
You might find some helpful information about cracked spark plug ceramic and HEAT RANGE causing random misfires in these two posts.
https://www.f150forum.com/f4/5-4l-3v...6/#post3930018
https://www.f150online.com/forums/v8...ml#post5161039
Good luck.
Thank you for your informative reply, very helpful. I'm going to take my F150 to the mechanic next week and I'll discuss many of the items in your post with him. I've since changed mechanics since I'm getting a runaround from my current one. Again I appreciate the helpful post and links that you attached.
John
07-01-2018, 05:53 PM
#3474
I had my phasers changed for $1500.00 back in June 2015, and in 2016/November my engine lost 4 cylinders. I ended up putting a Jasper engine in the truck and added on the $300 package for the new hoses, belt, and other accesssries. I also added their beefd up warranty for like 125.00. What I like about Jasper is they added on the Melling M360 oil pump which is supposed to pump oil better than the motor craft oil pump. Check out the jasper engine website and the 2005 Ford F-150 engine. They explain why the Melling oil pump is better. Phasers fail due to the lack of oil on them and dry starts if you don’t use a good oil filter.
I hope this helps
I hope this helps
07-07-2018, 10:38 AM
#3475
nathan3306
Okay guys, I'm rounding up all the parts and tools for this job and I would like your opinion on a few of them. So far, I've ordered the complete timing kit from MMR, they have a 10% discount going on until the July 8th, melling 340HV oil pump, FelPro valve cover gaskets, MC thermostat w/o-ring, lower radiator hose, serpentine belt. Will be ordering MC gold antifreeze, 8 MC sparkplugs, 8 MC boots, lisle spark plug tool
Truck history: 2004 F-150 5.4 3V 4x4 150K miles on the clock. I've had the truck since 27K miles, FORD replaced plugs at 98K & new coolant. It has had the rattle on start up for about 40K miles now but has gotten worse the past 15K. No real sign of the diesel knock and I replaced the VCTs about 10K miles ago. Always used MC820 oil filter with 5K mile oil change intervals with 5w-20. Switched to full synthetic a long time ago. Overall, she has been taken care of very well.
1. What were some of the things you also saw fit to replace while it was torn apart?
2.Should I go ahead and purchase both roller followers and adjusters? My thought is the rollers would be more prone to wear than the adjusters and there is also a big increase in price if I go with both. Went ahead and purchased them.
3. Remove camshaft or use the expensive tool to extract ^^^^^^^^^^^^? Can you rent this tool?
4. Is the oil pan gasket reusable or is new required if I drop the pan? Going to buy a new one.
5. What special tools helped with the job? I have limited special tools but have pretty much all the basics.
6. When did you know to quit for the day and take a break?
7. AC lines, I know they are pain but are there any tricks so I don't have to get the system drained and recharged later, or is it worth it to go ahead remove the lines?
8. Crank shaft bolt, reusable or no?
Truck history: 2004 F-150 5.4 3V 4x4 150K miles on the clock. I've had the truck since 27K miles, FORD replaced plugs at 98K & new coolant. It has had the rattle on start up for about 40K miles now but has gotten worse the past 15K. No real sign of the diesel knock and I replaced the VCTs about 10K miles ago. Always used MC820 oil filter with 5K mile oil change intervals with 5w-20. Switched to full synthetic a long time ago. Overall, she has been taken care of very well.
1. What were some of the things you also saw fit to replace while it was torn apart?
2.
3. Remove camshaft or use the expensive tool to extract ^^^^^^^^^^^^? Can you rent this tool?
5. What special tools helped with the job? I have limited special tools but have pretty much all the basics.
7. AC lines, I know they are pain but are there any tricks so I don't have to get the system drained and recharged later, or is it worth it to go ahead remove the lines?
Last edited by nathan3306; 07-10-2018 at 06:16 AM. Reason: Found some of the answers
07-07-2018, 11:27 AM
#3476
I have a 2004 F150 5.4 3 valve Lariat, 164,000 miles. I just completed the timing chain set, which is the cam phasers, chains, guides, tensioners, new melding M360 oil pump, vtc solenoids, and all the plugs + coil packs. Sounds like a new truck.
I had the start-up rattle as well as the ticking noises. the startup rattle was due to a broken passenger side guide that shattered and what was left was free floating on top of the chain.
it was a lot of work for me I am fortunate to have a family with a race shop and every tool I needed available to me. I did have to discharge the ac to move the line going to accentuator on the passenger side to get the valve cover off. some say you don't need to, not on mine. this guy also helped my efforts http://www.expertswrite.net/ford-5-4...placement.html
I hope this helps I just finished last Monday night, I think I just got another 160,000 miles by doing this job if not more.
I had the start-up rattle as well as the ticking noises. the startup rattle was due to a broken passenger side guide that shattered and what was left was free floating on top of the chain.
- I had someone I know inspect my roller followers and camshafts and they recommended leaving them alone.
it was a lot of work for me I am fortunate to have a family with a race shop and every tool I needed available to me. I did have to discharge the ac to move the line going to accentuator on the passenger side to get the valve cover off. some say you don't need to, not on mine. this guy also helped my efforts http://www.expertswrite.net/ford-5-4...placement.html
I hope this helps I just finished last Monday night, I think I just got another 160,000 miles by doing this job if not more.
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nathan3306 (07-08-2018)
07-10-2018, 01:30 PM
#3477
Renaissance Honky
Update:
I want to say I'm at about 30,000 miles on the Freedom Racing CNC phasers and everything is just peachy.
I did a couple of Blackstone oil analyses in the past year, and all wear numbers are below average for vehicle/engine combo.
Still running Formula Shell 5w-30 (still $13.88 @ Home Depot for a 5qt jug) and Motorcraft filters out to about 6,000 miles.
16.5-17mpg on e30 (~93 octane) gas, depending on traffic. $2.399/gal vs $2.899/gal for e10 87
I want to say I'm at about 30,000 miles on the Freedom Racing CNC phasers and everything is just peachy.
I did a couple of Blackstone oil analyses in the past year, and all wear numbers are below average for vehicle/engine combo.
Still running Formula Shell 5w-30 (still $13.88 @ Home Depot for a 5qt jug) and Motorcraft filters out to about 6,000 miles.
16.5-17mpg on e30 (~93 octane) gas, depending on traffic. $2.399/gal vs $2.899/gal for e10 87
The following users liked this post:
besel53 (07-11-2018)
07-18-2018, 04:20 PM
#3479
nathan3306
Does anyone have the Ford technical manual for this job?