BadFish523

Ok so maybe some one can tell me, what are the major brands that fall under group IV?

hahanson

Mobil One uses "some" PAO base. They don't disclose how much; it's proprietary.

In the US Amsoil and Royal Purple that I know of. Mobil 1 to some degree as i mentioned. Everything else is Group III (hydrocracked ), which i've been told in Europe doesn't qualify and can't be sold as synthetic if that's the primary base. For example, Castrol Syntec 0W-30 sold in Germany consists primarily of PAO base; In the US it's primarily Group III base stock (not sure if it contains any PAO). So the lines are a little on the fuzzy side... There is no information that I know of that discloses the acutal amounts or how much better one is over the other aside from the marketing manufacturers do.

Basically all grades of Mobil 1 supposedly consists primarily of PAO base stock. I have no idea on the actual percentage. The 0W-20, 0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-50 and 15W-50 are all said to fall under the "primarily" group IV/V base, but there is more debate and conflicting information about the 5W-30 and 10W-30 and AFAIK nobody not working for Mobil really knows for sure.

Valvoline SynPower is primarily group III with PAO blended in. Again, to what degree is unknown.

Pennzoil Platinum, Quaker State Q, and Castrol Syntec that is not the 0W-30 made in Germany plus most other off the shelf "synthetics" are group III. I don't know the origin of the Platinum and Quaker State bases as far as production technique but if they use Shell's XHVI base oil, which is a group III made from slack wax produced in hydrocracking base oil.

Even Pennziol's really expensive (>$50 for a 5 qt jug) is hydrocracked and note that Pennzoil points out in some ways is better than PAO:

Q. Are the base stocks group III, IV, or V?

Pennzoil Ultra™ is blended with Group III base stocks. These give superior solvency performance to Group IV base stocks, which we believe aids our aim to provide oil that delivers as close to “Factory Clean”. Rather than focus on any single component in the formulation, we focus on the end product.

I am not even sure what that means. So if they believe it is it true?

There's a lot of incomplete information as most of the companies cite "proprietary information" so there's no conclusive answer as to how much of what a particular brand consists of. If you want to learn more, there's multiple threads @ BITOG forums discussing this, and while there's some good info there, keep in mind not all of it is.

The following information is courtesy of Motorwatch.com (it appears the link is no longer available):

“Red Line is Group V (polyol ester) based (POE or esters). Amsoil and some Mobil-1 are
Group IV (poly-alpha olefin) based (PAO or synthesized hydrocarbons SHC). Castrol
Syntec and all the others calling themselves synthetic are Group III (hydrocracked slack
wax). The petroleum motor alls are all mineral oil based and make up Group II. We really
should group Red Line by itself, and put the others in separate categories (according to
the groups) because their performance is so different.”

This stuff fascintates me. Such fuss made over lubricant! It's just slippery fluid, right?

BadFish523

Lol that's why I asked because I'm not finding any real solid evidence. Tricky marketing people. Thanks for the info!

Audi Junkie

Redline and some AMSoil. However it's completely pointless, especially without a turbo. I could go on, but seriously, Pennzoil Gas-to-Liquid base oil puts the issue to sleep. Seal compatibility with PAO will always be an issue after all other comparisons are ironed out.

To be fair Redline is amazing, and PAO might be great in a gearbox. AMSoil gear oils too...

Audi Junkie

How do you define "protection"? Because...I don't see that on the spec sheet.

How about protection against wear? What makes you think "synthetic" oil has an advantage there?

How will an oil "protect" better by being a hair thinner at start-up? Are you saying a 5w-20 will always wear rate lower than 10w-30? What about in warm climates?

Obviously there needs to be some clarification of the goals there. If the goal is to run an engine forever with the lowest possible cost, isn't that been proven thousands of times over and over by old pick-ups and dino oil? We're not talking about turbo sports cars here, but a low revving V8 that doesn't stress the oil at all. It runs on the oil it's designed to run on, pretty simple.

Aside from the fact that today's "dino" oils are better than past "synthetic" oils anyway, let me talk about the actual differences. Synth oil has some more additives and slightly better base oil, better by a few visc index points, that's how it's categorized, by VI. Group II, II+ and III are all hydrocracked petroleum base, G-III is what we think of as "synthetic". No chemical differences exist, just base oil that's left in the hydrocracker a little longer.

Additive pack is more important than base oil anyway. Surely a G-II+ based oil can deliver the same performance as a G-III base of a fully formulated or "finished" lube product, esp if the additive pack is good.

There are just a few additive packs out there...standard overbase Calcium with moly, more or less of this or that. SOPUS oils as PZ and QS use this, same for Chevron-Havoline. There's also a "Sodium" additive pack that Mobil, Castrol and Valvoline use. I have seen it quiet valvetrains in a remarkable way. Also now, a titanium additive used by Castrol Edge and Kendall, a Conoco brand who also formulates Motorcraft.

Motorcraft being known for it's amazing G-II+ base oil and strong add pack with lots of boron....but MC doesn't use the titanium additive. I was excited about it when it was explained that the Ti gets worked into the metal lattice... further research is this is a unremarkable multi-function additive, just TiO2 like in white paint, except a nano form that is actually an inexpensive method to formulate with.

This is what I ordered for winter, I'll use some of my 10w-30 and 5w-30 for summer.




https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...ilpage_o03_s00

Amazon has some great deals if you are flexible with brands and viscs. The Havoline HM delivered for $15 is a steal. I see SynPower 0w-20 for $22....not bad.

I say just pick a brand you like, the color of the bottle or what your grandpa used....

Visc is just a minor tweek. I change oil at 6 months so I can swap thick and thin visc for winter and summer. 6 months is pretty ideal anyway, it takes care of short trip driving and people who put lots of hwy miles. Counting down miles and deciding how many miles to go on oil is a good way to go crazy. Just do it by the calendar; May Day and Halloween so you have fresh oil for the cold and don't have to change it in the middle of winter!

hahanson

Only Amsoil XL is group III; the rest is Group IV. Also, according to them, Mobil 1 EP and ESP are group IV. The "regular" changed to group III.

Based on what, exactly?

Again, based on what? The main point of GTL base is the abundance of Natural Gas over Crude oil. It's a perfectly good oil (It's even in my truck right now -- there was a good sale), but there's no testing which proves it's better than PAO.

What issue does it "put to sleep"?

40 years ago perhaps. Lack of additives to swell seals and poor compatibility (and some incompatibilites) with SOME seal materials existed early on, but has not been an issue for decades.

Please elaborate on and support that statement.

hahanson

Wow. There's so much misunderstanding/misinformation here I don't even know where to begin. I'll just kind of summarize with some points I've made previously.

Synthetics do provide better overall protection (even Group III) primarily at room temperature, and the difference increases the colder it gets. If you want to attack the methodology, that's fine. But there are plenty of tests out there that conclude the same thing, if not in application (real world use) at least in theory (in a lab). I'd also be curious to see even one example of the "proven thousands of times" old pickups and dino oil show conventional oil is just as good.

At it's very foundation, the fact that a 5W-30 rating (and understand that the numbers represented are ratings, not actual viscosity) on conventional "dino" is based on thin oil which uses viscosity modifiers to raise it to attain the 30 rating, where PAO oil doesn't need these modifiers as it passes both ratings using the heavier base. Why is this important? Because viscosity modifiers shear and wear out, causing the fluid to lose it's effectiveness at normal operating temperatures (generally accepted as being 100C). This if fine if you change oil often before the modifiers wear out.

At the other end of the spectrum, at room temperature (70F/21C) conventional oil does not flow as well as Group III and Group IV, meaning the lubricants take longer to reach critical engine parts during the time most engine wear occurs. Again, the lower the temperature, the greater the difference becomes -- and it's the difference is substantially more the "hair" difference you suggest. This is especially relevant to this forum because overhead cam (OHC) engines typically require thinner oils to speed lubrication of the overhead cam(s) and valve-train when the engine is first started.

In fact, this is the main failure of conventional "dino" oil (Group II). It can significantly lose flow properties sitting in its bottle over winter in a garage. Low temperature will seperate the wax and paraffins (this is a big part of the "sludge" you often find around the oil filler and inside the cap), causing the fluid to be thicker and substantially decrease its ability to flow and reach critical engine components during startup. What's the "real world" difference?Mobile 1 compared their 5W-30 synthetic oil to a mineral based 10W-30 and a 10W-40 in ice cold conditions. The engine turned over at 152 RPM with the synthetic 5W-30 Mobil 1. The 10W-30 and 10W-40 mineral oils turned over at 45 and 32 RPM respectively. Neither of the latter 2 engines started.

In general, Group III and Group IV are much better than Group II as they retain their lubricating ability for much longer during normal temps, and have substantially better flow rates at room temperature and lower.

Group IV is generally better than Group III as they simply don't break down as quickly, and are the base oil for the extended service oils from Mobil 1 and Amsoil (and I'm sure a few other not so common brands).

I use the term, "general" a lot as even within these oil classifications, differences in formulation varies so it's logical to think differences in performance will vary as well.

As for your different choices in oil for seasonal changes, they are the exact opposite of what logic would dictate.

Lets Talk Motor Oil – It is So Very Misunderstood

540 RAT – TECH FACTS, NOT MYTHS

Motor Oil Tests That Can Reveal the Quality of Your Oil

Cold Cranking Viscosity – ASTM D-5293


PAO Synthetic Material Compatibility Chart

Audi Junkie

So, you can't define what you mean by "protection".

BadFish523

Haha this thread is warming up again. Remember, keep it nice and audi we ask that you share references. Without links to show your reference is just he said she said

hahanson

Who, me? Seriously?

In this context it's blatantly obvious. I mean, would you want your car to come down with STDs, or **GASP**! Become pregnant!?!?