2019 SuperCrew Audio Questions
 

I am trying to document and collect data for decision making purposes and so far I have read a few things and need to get some clarification from some of the experienced members of the forum. This will be my working thread for questions and advice.

I have a 2019 F150xlt Supercrew 5.0 with Sync3 and non-premium 7 speaker system.

My plan is to due a full setup. Front Components, Rear Coxials, Sub, Processor, 4ch Amp, Sub Amp


1) use FORScan disable channel
2) use FORScan to set audio to Low-level line out, and use a harness to convert the speaker to RCAs
----(I know you can just tap the front speakers, but my research leads me to understand the benefit of doing this is it allows for fade and balance to still be used)
3) I am thinking about the Rear Straight Ahead kit, my idea is to stick a 12in behind the rear seat, amps under the rear seat in the little sectioned off area.

4) My goals are to go for SQ but I do like to turn it up and sometimes want to hear bass (when the mood strikes). I would like to bring 4 channel out of the Sync3 and create 4 channel and sub out. I am hoping I can accomplish this with an audio processor, the part missing for me is that sub-level adjustment that aftermarket head-units have.

I am looking at the following for the Amps and Sound processor:

Alpine PXE-0850S (this looks to be the replacement of the H800 people raved about, plus it has bluetooth and app support for adjustments without a laptop)
Alpine R-A60F (4x100rms for speakers)
Alpine R-A75M (sub amp)
* the amps can change based on power needs *


Sub decisions, they will all be in a sealed box:
Alpine SWR-T12
Kicker 43CWRT122
SI BM-MKV (I know this one is more SQ than anything)


As far a speaker options go I have the following in mind:

1) Polk Audio Option
Fronts - MM 6502
Rears - DB652

2) Hertz Option
Fronts - DSK 165.3
Rears - DCX 165.3

I have also looked at Focal and Alpine, and I am open to other options as well.

No forscan needed. Just disconnect the center.

FOR-11ck harness. Front channels only to high level on processor. Front channels are full frequency and contain no eq or roll off. You don't need fade from the headunit because your dsp can handle fade directly from your phone. The output channels are independent not only front and rear but also left and right. Forgot about factory fade controls. The only thing your oem headunit should be use for us source control and master volume control.

Ill take the hertz over the Polk.

SI BMK ALL DAY LONG for both output and clarity.

The Dayton 408 is 1/5 the cost of the alpine and offers all of the features you want. Bluetooth, mobile tuning, etc. Pretty badass piece of hardware for the cost.

Will a single SI BM fill the cabin while crusing down the then interstate with the windows down? While still having some room to grow for extra boom when wanted?

Why high level output when you have the option to set the Sync3 to LowLevel output?

the Dayton can handle high output and it gives you more options to tune the system.. it's also much louder than low input

Forscan has been known to cause more problems than it solves. High level is absolutely adequate for an sq oriented system. All why avoiding turn on pop that many forscan users face.

In the right box, 1 MKV can give you that output. It's gonna be behind your seat so that may limit output but you will definitely hear it!

I can accept that response, I know the Alpine has the remote that can handle some of my needs as well. What about being able to adjust sub level separately like Aftermarket HUs are able to do with the sub out, guessing I would have to buy the remote level control knob.


If it was between Focal and Hertz what would you choose? Do you have another recommendations?
What about spending the extra on dynamat on the doors, or something like the foam bucket inserts for the speakers in the doors.

I'd pick Hertz over Focal simply because Focals tend to be too bright for my ears. Sound deadening should be one of the first things you do prior to speaker, amp, sub changes. I just posted my thoughts on foam baffles vs silicone ones offered by Install Bay.

..

Dhmcfadin is spot on with recommendations on the setup and helped me tremendously with my setup. It’s without a doubt the best sounding system I have had in 15+ years. My build thread is on here just a month or so ago with almost the same thing you’re looking for.
DSP 408
kicker 4 channel amp- mods n highs
RF sub amp- foxbox with 2 alpine type R 10’s with a remote knob
focal components up front
kicker coax in rear doors
it doesn’t everything I want flawlessly....

and hushcaraudio is a dealer for stuff!

I don't see it specifically mentioned but don't forget sound deadening.

Don't forget Morels, I love the sound from mine!

Also, Bruce with Hush Audio makes some great plates to cover the access poirts in the doors.

The Morels are an awesome choice. I didn't mention them because he asked between the other two brands but I agree with you.

You spoke with me about the Morels on the phone yesterday and I looked into them a bit. Is there a good combo you recommend?

And after talking with you I am investigating the option of just going with a full 10 under the rear seat, something like the Alpine R-W10

i have never used this sub but i have had many, many dayton products and they all have been great.

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...4-ohm--295-251

The Morel Tempo Ultra 602 Integra 6-1/2" 2-way car speakers for the rear and Morel Tempo Ultra 602 6-1/2" component speaker system or Morel Tempo Ultra 692 6"x9" component speaker system for the fronts have been very popular for the F150 guys.

I have 692's, still in the box!🤪🤪

I have the exact truck as the OP. However, I plan to take baby steps to improve my system. In the interim, I've ordered the Kicker sub system designed specifically for the vehicle from Ford Accessories because it has an internal amp and fits behind the seat which saves me floor space. I also want to replace the factory speakers with the most efficient possible to leverage the power of the factory amp. My basic question is about any equalization performed by the factory setup. I know that the sub "requires" dealer installation which I assume includes programming the audio system to make it aware of the presence of the sub in the system. Does this change what freqs are sent to the door speakers? A related question: is full range audio sent to the factory tweeters (and then limited by its internal cap?) What speakers do you recommend for my interim goals? I don't need a super loud system, nor an insane amount of bass - just a noticeable improvement over the stock system. Looking forward to your input, thanks1

CharleyA - you can enable the subwoofer yourself using Forscan - see the massive thread in the main 2015 and newer forum. Regarding speakers you will get modest improvement by replacing just the speakers I think worth it but don't expect a big difference - again just search and spend some time on this site - it depends on how much you want to spend. When you replace the speakers you should at the very least do sound deadening on your doors to reduce cab noise and provide some improvement in the sound. The tweeter gets full range and the cap mounted on back of the tweeter functions as the crossover. Most people end up adding an amp and DSP to really make the sound system come alive. There are several different EQ settings in Forscan (727-01-02 x*xx) but in all honesty nobody seems to have figured out what they really do - most people just stick with the default setting for their truck.

The PXE-0850S and the H800 are completely different beasts.
The PXE-0850S lacks literally all of the features that make the H800 desirable: center channel upmixing and Dolby Pro Logic II surround sound, among several other things.
But, the PXE-0850S has a built-in 25x8 amp and 4 additional outputs.

With your budget, you've got some pretty good alternatives to the mainstream brands.
The Zapco ST-6X DSP is out and runs $600. That gets you an 8 channel DSP and 6x100w amp in one, allowing you to run fully active.
Pair that SI BM MKV with a Zapco ST-500XMII monoblock for $250.
That opens your budget up to allow much nicer speakers. In that case, Audiofrog GS690 + GS10 fronts and GS62 rears would be my suggestion if you want to stay with new gear.

The above gear would be the same or lower cost as your initial list, but far superior overall (IMO). And if you don't mind gently used gear, you can get even better speakers, and probably save some cash on the monoblock too. ( I've got a like new set of Hertz ML comps if you're interested ;) )

I have never heard of Zapco so I would have to do research.

I know people want to rave and recommend that imported Dayton equipment, but I prefer to spend the extra and buy quality items that have full support and warranty. Plus I don't mind some DIY but some of the other brands have reasons to why they are where they are.

I did get attached to the H800 and it looks like it is a killer unit, downside is that the remote control for it is an extra $250, and the PXE appears to still be getting updates to control and add some features as time goes on, so makes me wonder. I did like the Bluetooth app option mainly for the fact it helps me limit having to use a laptop in my truck to tune it, and I could make adjustments on the fly if needed.


I need to get to a store and listen to some of the shallows vs full subs as I need to find out if the shallows are going to deliver the bass I am looking for. I don't want to shake the block, but I also don't want to be left wanting after spending $500 on a sub. I want balance but I also do want to feel the low notes and be able to turn it up some when the mood hits. Its between a Shallow 12 behind the seat or finding a way to fit a full 10 under the seat. I think I should only need 1, I could probably go dual 8s but I am not sure about the 8s not going low enough.

I am leaning towards the Morels for the doors. And I have had Kenwoods, Alpines, Polks, and they have all sounded good once you set the crossovers and get the EQ adjust to tune the mid and high for you liking. I think the Polks were my best sounding but they were also the only components I have had and they were amped.

1 Stereo Integrity MKV 12" will give you everything you want and more. You are going to have a hard time listening in store because cabin gain is not presenting itself inside a store.

Zapco is a phenomenal brand. Heard a Mercedes at Aggieland Invitational running Zapco amps. They make the power they claim, run cool, and are smaller footprint. Cost is also a benefit.

Morels are a tier above the kenwoods, alpines, polks, JL's .. they are in the class with Hertz, Dynaudio, Rainbow, Focals, Seas.. just to name a few

Not sure exactly what you're saying here, but it sounds like you're implying that Dayton is some kind of rebranded junk with no one backing it up. That couldn't be less accurate.
Dayton Audio is the house brand of Parts Express, which is based near Dayton, Ohio (hence the name). You call their local number for warranty or customer service needs and talk to an actual PE employee/technician. Or, if you're in the area, you can just go into their showroom/store.
The equipment itself is designed/engineered by Dayton Audio/PE and produced to spec by a build house. This is how 99% of audio brands operate. Even Alpine, JL, Focal, and all the other big names use build houses for some or all of their equipment.

And the Alpine PXE doesn't have the proper hardware to be capable of what the H800 does. No amount of software updates can change that.



This is pretty inaccurate since all of these companies make a wide range of gear. Of all of those listed, I think all but Polk have component sets that are very competitive with each other in both build and sound quality up to the ~$500 range. Most of them still have competitive products in the ~$1000 range.

Back in the Zapco was good back in the day. They were sold off to an Italy company, not sure now.

you're confusing tier levels and model levels .. yes they have comparable models .. high end polk will compete with a low end morel, however morel, hertz, focal, rainbow they are all a higher tier than polk, kenwood, alpine ..

your argument is telling me that a 30k Honda Accord is on the same level as a 30k Mercedes .. do they cost similar? yes .. are the companies on the same tier level? absolutely not

You might perceive Mercedes (or any brand) to be a "higher tier" brand, but that doesn't mean it actually is, or that a 30k Mercedes is actually any better than a 30k Honda (or Acura).
Your example is especially poor since you'll actually get more for $30k from Honda than you do from Mercedes due to Honda's economy of scale and the Mercedes "brand tax". Just go sit in an Accord and a CLA250 if you want confirmation of that.
Even at the very top of those brands, the NSX and AMG GT are neck-and-neck in performance and price, but the NSX has TONS more tech packed into it.

My point is that shopping only brand X because they make $3000 speakers, when you're looking for $200 speakers, is pretty pointless. You're not buying $3000 speakers for $200, you're buying $200 speakers from a company that also makes $3000 speakers; the latter part of that being completely irrelevant to you.
JBL makes $70 speakers and $70,000 speakers. Are they comparable because they have the same name on them? Hell no.
That's like thinking your Mercedes CLA is comparable to an AMG S-Class because they both say 'Mercedes'.
Volkswagen makes the $19,000 Jetta and the $5,700,000 Bugatti Divo...

I'm not at all saying Morel make bad speakers. I actually recommend them to most people. But at every price point, there are equivalent or better alternatives to any brand depending on user preference.
The big thing for Morel is that they use a softer sounding tweeter than most in their lower lines, which tends to be more enjoyable to a lot of people. But if you prefer bright highs or especially deep midbass, there are better suited brands at the same price.

I am open to options

I went into a store yesterday on the way home and listened to a 13tw5 (sealed), 12tw3 (sealed), and 10w3 (ported) and in the demo room I really couldn't tell a difference between the 10w3 and 13tw5, though the volume wasn't high and it was the employee's demo material he was playing. I couldn't get a feel for what each sub was capable of.

As far as Morels, it appears from the reviews I am reading that they have a great balanced sound and definitely high above their price bracket (great performance for value). I have though about dropping down to something like the Polk DB6502 and DB652 which would be about 60% of the price of the Morels, but looks like I might loose more than 40% of the performance. I don't want to over spend, but I also don't want to be left wishing I would of spent the extra bit later.

Looking at the DSP again, I priced out the Audison AP 8.9 Bit, which is a DSP with 8x65w amp, and can do 4x130w rms bridged. I am leaning to using something like that as it would allow me to make the install simplier, I would only need to add an additional amp for the sub. Cost wise it comes out about the same as the Alpine PXE and another Alpine 4ch Amp. I would need to invest in the Audison DRC which would add another $200 but it does give me the ability to control fade, balance, preset, sub level, etc real quick from a small remote controller.

ok .. i'm not going to argue with you.. i did not come here selling him morels .. i didn't even suggest it.. i just congratulated him on his choice of morels because they are a cut above polk and alpine .. if you don't feel the same that's fine.. that's my opinion

so just to be clear.. you feel Morel and Polk are on the same level Brand wise? correct?

i have not personally heard Morel components, however i've had Morel Ultimo Subs and they were amazing .. i know just because a company makes good subs doesn't mean they make good components, but DH always recommends them and i trust his opinion. I would go with the Morels

I don't feel a brand is on any level just because of its name. That's entirely a matter of subjective perception. You can see that in my previous comment, but I'll expand a bit:
Any brand's "level" would be dictated by what product you're referencing. The only difference is what level of product a brand chooses to market to at any given time.
Focal, for example, currently sells everything from Chinese build-house stuff to audiophile-class gear that's hand made in France.
What if Rockville or Crunch launched equally-awesome hand built audiophile-class components tomorrow? Would they not be "on the same level" because of the brand name?
MB Quart, Soundstream, Sony, Phoenix Gold, and many others have changed their market positioning over the years; some to lower end, some to higher.

And Morel and Polk don't target the same audiences with many of their products, but I do think Polk's and Morel's offerings are comparable within the same price range.
eg: The Polk MM and Morel Maximo Ultra are both solid products in the $200-250 range, but so are most other brands that sell a product in that same range.

The TW5 won't sound much, if any, louder due to its lower Xmax. It's selling point is its ability to fit in a very tight space. If you don't absolutely need that ability (and the F-150 doesn't), it's not really worth the cost IMO.

Morels in general do tend to have a well balanced sound, which is why they're so often recommended. The (non-Ultra) Maximo line would be roughly comparable to the Polk dB line. Each will have their unique sound, though, with the Polks likely to sound a bit more bright/punchy.

Be very aware of what Audison you're actually getting. The AP 8.9bit is actually 8x35w at 4 ohms. The AP F8.9bit is 8x85w at 4 ohms. The F model costs significantly more.
Getting into integrated units in that range, the Match PP86DSP, Match UP7DSP, and Helix V Eight DSP are worth looking at as well. (All are made by Audiotec Fischer)
The UP7DSP has some unique features that are pretty interesting. (RealCenter, Augmented Bass, StageXpander, ClarityXpander)

I would stay far away from Audison. Not worth the cost the tuning software is terrible. They are nowhere near the top or even middle of the pack anymore.

Ah yes I was looking at the AP 8.9 Bit, the main rating I cared about was the bridged rating which on their website is rated at 4x130w RMS which is plenty for the Morels. I have had the Polk dbs in the past in a Focus and they were fine, the mids were nice and the highs were easily handled via the Alpine headunit turning down the treble a step or two.

I have read that Audison DSPs were pretty wonderful. I am looking for a good balance with the ability to control sub level separate of the rest of the system. I list to alot of different types of music and on some days I want to drive with music being balanced and other days I might want to thump a bit and turn it up with the windows down. It all depends on the mood, song, etc. Example when headed to my son's football games we usually rock out with some music to get him amped up, being able to turn it up and control the sub and add some punch would be wonderful in that situation.

I am thinking about the SI BM MKV, I read an entire 7 pages about it over at DIYMA, looks like one in a .7 ft3 sealed box under or behind the seat should do nicely. The problem I have is that someone may say 1 is plenty for them, while I may think its just barely enough. I also don't want to go overboard and have too much bass that I over spent. Which is why I am struggling back and forth between 1 full 10, 1 shallow 12, 2 shallow 10s, etc

JL Audio and Audio Control also make amps with built in DSPs and they are really good pieces to work with and last forever.

How much are you paying for the 8.9 bit?

I am not paying anything at the moment. I am just trying to research and gather the information so I can be more knowledgeable as I try to plan this out. according to ABT the price on the 8.9 Bit is $1000 plus $220 for the remote controller

Gotcha. Yeah, I don't know where you've read about Audison but any real world review from an a true enthusiast will tell you to not waster your time or money. Believe me, if I thought Audison was worth it, I wouldn't try to steer you away. I have no skin in the game other than not wanting to see a fellow enthusiast regret their $1220.00 purchase.

Talk to HushCarAudio on this forum. He is an Audiotec Fischer dealer. Ask for a price on the Helix V Eight. This will absolutely smoke the Audison in every single way. Price is right about the same with a much better remote.

The nice part of the BM MKV, you can buy one, and see if it is enough. If it is not, you could sell it for nearly full price. If you like it and want a second for more output, you can always add that too. It is in a small enough enclosure that each one takes up about 1 seat area. My jl tw3 (about the same volume) takes up just the center rear seat. I could add another on either side or could fit three really easily under the rear seats. My TW3 will not fit behind my rear seat, nor would it when I had my 2017 f250.

I am thinking if I went with something like the BM MKV I would put it behind the rear seat and use the Straight Ahead seat kit to move the rear seat forward 2 inches, that should help provide enough room.

That will do it!

I have looked and haven't been able to find anyone who has put measurements of what can be fit back there before and after the kit.

My idea is a BM MKV similar (aka Alpine SWR-T12) behind the rear seat in a .7ft3 sealed box
then in the little area under the seat behind the bracket/footboard mounting the amps and/or DSP

then I shouldn't give up much space and should still keep OEM look, feel, finish

Have you ordered this kit? If not, I can cut you a deal on one. I bought it and realize I don't need it now. One screw is missing because it fell in to the cab wall!

Let me know what measurement you need from the kit?

I am just curious how much space I actually have behind the seat with the kit. Like if I were to cut away the material and build a box there, could I get .7ft3?

I will try to get your measurement in the next day or two. It might be this weekend, I have to pull my amp board because of the issues with the Dayton DSP and wiring. I am assuming you want the measurement with the seat folded down and up?

On the seat forward kit, does it bring the storage area (below the seat on the drivers side) forward with it? Or does it stay in place? I ask because I need more room lateral room under the seat for a large enclosure.

Both would be great. I am looking for measurements with the seat up since thats how it would be most the time.

Yes, it brings the storage forward. I can measure it for you tonight when I get home. That's an easy one.

Okay, I will also try to measure from the top, middle and bottom of the seat with the seat both up and down.

Thank you!

I was just realizing that there are some 5 channel amps that would also simplify things.

Morel and Alpine both have amps that do around 4x75-100rms (4ohm) + 1x500rms (2ohm), which means I could cut down on cost of equipment and even simplify wiring some.

I do love my alpine pdr-v75 but would much prefer the pdx-v9 as it is the same output at 2 or 4 ohms. The pdr-v75 changes how much it can output based on impedance. I am patiently waiting for a good deal on the pdx-v9 to come about so I can swap my amp out and put the pdr-v75 in the wifes car.

Audio Control and JL Audio makes great amps as well. They have 5 and 6 channel options.

DH,
From the plastic retainer to the bottom shelf it's about 10 1/2 in, from the plastic retainer to the rear wall (without pad in place) it's 17 5/8 in. The kit also raise the seats about 1/4 of an inch.

All measurement are with the seat up and padding removed, from the rear wall to the seat bracket it 9 in, from the rear wall to the bottom of the seat is 8 in, from the rear wall to the middle of the seat is 6 in, from the rear wall to the top of the seat is a little less then 4 in.
All measurement are with the seat down and padding removed, from the rear wall to the seat bracket it 10 1/2 in, from the rear wall to the bottom of the seat is 9 in, from the rear wall to the middle of the seat is 7 1/2 in, from the rear wall to the top of the seat is a 5 in.

Also note the brackets can be moved forward 1 1/2" more. Let me know if this help. I do have some photos if needed and I can get better ones this weekend when I pull the amp board out.

Love that Audiocontrol LC-6.1200!! It's a great amp.

Based on that you could create a quick wedge box that is

4in top depth
8in bottom depth
13.5in height
20in width

would give you .63ft3 of volume if built with 5/8 MDF

and if I am estimating this right, you should be able to have about 5.5in of mounting depth to work with.

Sounds about right, you might need to adjust the seats up a little more, as the seats move from down to up the rear part pivots and I think the max pivot point was slightly less than 8in. The nice thing with that kit is it allows you to move the seats forward more if needed. I you want I can confirm the measurement this weekend when I pull the amp board out. I will see if I can also get some pics if that would help?

I think I am going to be going with a kit like that and putting a nice shallow 12 behind the seat, I would go with a full 10 for a bit more volume, but I think the 12 would help with lower range. I have even though about going Alpine S-type 12 vs R-type 10

Both of the Alpine options are decent. Let me know if you want pricing via PM.

If you need measurements let me know, also if you want a deal on that kit let me know. I am going to remove it from my truck. I lost a little more leg room then I really want, I also ending up getting a JL 8" microsub. It fits under the seat and sounds great!!

Noticed Kicker is going to be releasing the L7T soon, specs look nice. I remember my old L5 hitting like beast.

I'm kinda sorta halfway along in my modest upgrade. I had the Ford / Kicker sub installed, and it's improved the bass response somewhat - but it's a bit muffled for my tastes. We'll see how long I can live with it. The Focal 690 are "halfway" installed in front - meaning the mid bass are in. I don't have a lot of spare time to work on the system, so the factory tweeters are still in place, yet it still sounds surprisingly better than stock. I decided to 3D print the tweeter mounts, so I'm working on that aspect ( I have a printer ordered - but I need to learn how to use it.) The rear Focals coaxs are in. Overall, the system sounds pretty good in this incomplete / intermediate state.

In the meantime, I acquired a Kicker KEY amp. This particular amp has a built in DSP that has auto setup routine - we'll see how that works. However I do have a wiring question:

Since I have a "factory" sub, it's my understanding that when installed, the bass output to the rear speakers is cutoff under a certain range. I'm curious if I could feed the factory front speaker output to the amp to drive all four channels of the amp, and how I would wire that? I'm also concerned what happens to the factory head unit when the rear channels have no load.

CharleyA,
3D printing is so awesome and fun. There is a huge learning curve but PM me if you want help with this. To make a good print you'll need to use PETG or ABS material for the car environment. PLA will melt in the heat so don't even try. Use supports setup by your slicing program for the end tabs where the screw goes in.
As for your head unit, it will be fine with no load to the rear channels.
Regards,
Bruce