balancer installed, shift points raised
 

And it basically went 2 tenths slower! Best it could muster tonight was a 12:10 @ 114. Raised them again and it went 12:20. Raised them again and added a little timing and it went a 12:18 @ 113. Conditions were similar to the last time we went to the track. The truck was basically .2 slower in the 1/8 mile. Best 60 was a 1.75, last time a 1.70.

The new balancer does weigh a little more than the one we removed, but it can't be much. Hard to believe it would make .2 difference.

We're a little stumped. I had Matt (my tuner) there and we looked at all the datalogs and everything is right where it should be. DA was like 2100 or something like that, I think it was 2000 last time we went. The maf readings are good and it's making power, throttle isn't closing on the shifts, and the timing is good, fuel trims all look good.

Clue me in.....I honestly expected a 11.7 at least.

I'm not sure what to do next....E85, or torque converter maybe. Let me hear it. I'm really disappointed as I was expecting to be in BadCon's neighborhood in the 11.6 to 11.7 territory.

Is it the Gen I heads and cams are that much inferior to the Gen II stuff? I want a solid 11 second truck. What would you guys do next?

Wow, that is really surprising, I figured you'd be upper mid 11's with just a little more RPM. However, some important information was gained tonight...it tells us you are not making much power up top, not enough to benefit from a higher shift point. My truck shifts upwards of 7500rpm because its making power all the way to redline, but in your case it might be falling on its face upwards of 7000....which means you are falling off the power harder then you would had it shifted early. Its all about maximizing the area under the curve....less area = less speed.

Before we get into what parts to add, there are a few things that could be restricting the top end. Are you getting any supercharger belt slip? Do the boost numbers remain stable all the way to redline? Is it pulling any timing up top? A look at the log would answer some questions.

As for more power, cams would help it breath up top and that is one of the bigger differences between your engine and mine, as the gen 2 F150 Coyote's got cams near as good as the Mustang. You could add a 72mm pulley, which would give you around 13psi of peak boost...I typically see 12lbs or so at WOT. That is the limit until belt slip really becomes an issue with the smaller pulleys.

Honestly reflecting on all this, I don't think there is anything "wrong" with your truck....it might just be about horsepower. When I had a 75mm pulley and my stock y-pipe into a single 3" exhaust, it dynoed at 540whp and would run upper 11's and sometimes low 12's on my Dragy device with a personal best of 11.65 in good air near my house. In SAR that would probably be an 11.9, as the air down there is crap. After the 72mm pulley swap, new injectors/pump, and a catless y-pipe, I've run a personal best of 11.46 near my house on the dragy, and 11.62 at SAR. Our trucks are probably similar weight as mine, while aluminum, is also a 4x4 and with my fat ass in it is probably closer to 4900lbs race weight.


If it makes you feel any better, my truck got slower with the finalized tune as we lowered the shift points in the interest of safety....it is my daily after all.

I don't have a boost gauge...but, there was no apparent belt slip or loss of power judging by the maf readings and others. It's not pulling any timing. In fact I did your trick and added 1/2 can of boostane professional. ait2f's are superb, not pulling any timing there. On tip in in first gear, the timing would drop some to -4 I think, however this wasn't changed from the first time to the track to now. He did adjust the tip in timing some but it didn't appear to make much difference it would drop some on the shifts, which I believe is torque management in interest of not smoking the transmission...what I was told anyway.

But you're right, before throwing more money at it, I would like to figure out what to do next, beside moving the shift points back down perhaps. They're suggesting a new fuel pump and injectors and going E85, but I'm not sure that would be more effective than a torque converter.

Maybe I should swap in a Gen II coyote motor. Used low mileage ones are $2600 to $2800 locally, from what I've seen. Maybe that's the best option.

A full fuel system with E85 is the cheapest way to add power at this point, and would net you probably 80hp or more for about $2500 with money for a total re-tune factored in. The labor is easy and you could do that yourself. But you'd be living dangerously with the OPG and your stock rods. There are plenty of Mustang guys roaming around with bone stock gen 1's and 650whp+, but there are also plenty of failures at those power levels too. The gen 2 is stronger in most regards and with the engine out you could easily install the OPG, ending up with a motor capable of 800whp should you decide to go crazy in the future.
What I don't know is if your current Roush blower will translate to a gen 2 coyote. I don't see why it wouldn't, but you'd have to research that a little.

I'll sell you my truck lol

what injectors would I need? ford racing 80lbs or the ID1000s. The ID1000's are crazy expensive. The 80lb ford racing can be had in the $400 range. Which fuel pump would I go with? They said they wouldn't charge me for a total retune as a lot of the leg work has been done. Probably an hour on the dyno with the new pump and injectors and they could dial it in.

having said all that, should I have them move the shift points back down, or leave them as is in anticipation of a fuel system upgrade?

What is it shifting at now? E85 isn't necessarily going to extend your power band, just inflate it across the board as you can run more timing.

I'm personally running Deatschwerks DW95 injectors, and they are $700 full price for a set and are equivalent to 1000cc injectors. Idle quality is fine and I still get good fuel economy and the tuning data is readily available online. I'm also running a DW400 fuel pump ($250), which is good for around 700hp on E85, though to really take advantage of E85 you'll want to throw a boost-a-pump on top of the DW400. Dorian is running a single DW400 and a BAP. However BAP's are not good for pumps long term....they make them run hotter, and burnout is an issue if you run low fuel levels. A full return style fuel system would be best, but expect to spend at least $1500 retail....or around $1000 if you assemble your own dual pump system using quality components. The absolute cheapest way would be DW95 injectors, DW400 pump, and a VMP fixed 18v BAP. which would be about $1300. Deatschwerks actually rates the DW400 pump to 18v....so it might not have any issues at those power levels and you can give them a call to get the final word. With that setup I think you'd be fine running E85 with the 75mm pulley. You can also throw in a 72mm pulley for another couple pounds of boost with E85.

At that point I'd probably keep the shift points below 7000 just in the interest of safety. However if you pop a rod, then its the perfect time to install a gen 2 :).

it's shifting around 6900, and he advised to leave it there as the injectors at that rpm are at 100% duty cycle.

I don't know, maybe I should move the shift points back some and install perhaps the 72mm pulley, the pump you recommended and the ford racing injectors and stay on 93. That along with lowered shift points would at least get me consistently in the 11.8-11.9 range. Perhaps even the stock fuel pump would be sufficient for a 72mm pully and injector upgrade.

He's supposed to give me a ballpark figure. I want to stay returnless if possible, just for the cost savings.

btw I appreciate your advice

I have heard the 80lb Ford Racing injectors have drivability issues, and tuners don't like them. The 56lb Ford Racing Injectors are what came stock on the Trinity powered 2013-14 Cobra's, and will meet the 93 octane fuel requirements but have no head room for future E85 usage.

Do the injectors and the pump, 72mm pulley, and 93 octane, leave the shift points where they are at. The pump is an extra $250, not a hard install, and gives you plenty of overhead for as much power as your engine will tolerate on 93 octane (pumps rated at 1000hp on 93 lol). That's my exact setup, and aside from slightly more cranking on hot starts, I've noticed no impact from the pump or injectors. I'll be adding an inline check valve to combat the extended cranks by keeping fuel pressure in the lines after shut off, following Unbroken's instructions posted on this forum. However you can buy a pump with the check valve built in, just call DW directly. I told my tuner I wanted the pump with the internal check valve, but he ordered the regular pump instead. Oh well...

I posted about a issue with these pumps where the power connector does not latch properly....so find that thread and make sure the damn plug stays connected or else you'll be dropping the tank a second time. First time you take the tank off it'll be a bitch...second time will take you 15 minutes.

The only other big difference between our trucks is I have a dual 67mm throttle body. Positive displacement superchargers hate intake restriction, so anything you do to open up the intake system before the blower will reap HP rewards. However the throttle body is not cheap, and I noted some driveability differences between it and the stock GT500 throttle body that comes with the Roush kit, and I'm not exactly sure how much power if any it will add to your setup when you are RPM restricted below 7000. I'd probably leave it be, as the GT500 throttle body just drives better IMO, with less boost surge at part throttle and flows enough to get you to 550-600whp, which is the power you need to get the times you want.

Thanks, there's a lot of food for thought there. Seriously.

I have a kenne bell boost a pump laying around i just took off my truck. As far as Gt500 throttle body's go look on sum mustang forums such as svt performance you can pick up a use one for a decent price. Do you have a copy of your dyno graph? That would help with the question of where your power starts falling off and setting up the shift points.

I'll see if I can find it and take a better picture

doesn't really seem to be falling off. I don't really know what's going on. There was a little more head wind, but I really expected it to go a least a couple tenths faster.

maybe it just isn't making enough power

it has a gt500 throttle body on it already. do you mean maybe a polished or ported one?

I was meaning aftermarket throttle bodies. They had a vmp twin 72mm just sell for $400. Good way to save coin on go fast parts.

Was your MPH the same as your last time out?

Like others have mentioned your probably just a little light on fuel up top. Maybe injectors/BAP in the near future

I would put any more money into the truck until you figure out what's going on. if your raising the shift points and adding timing with a slower ET there is an issue. I would go back to your old shift points, do a good visual inspection of the plugs and start fresh. I would really try to monitor your charge air pressure ( boost) and your iat's. maybe with the added timing a shift points you were building excessive heat? best of luck.

all the datalogging pretty much eliminates all those ideas. All the commanded and actual fuel trims are on the mark. Ait2f's never went over 111 and that was on the return road. It's making good power according to all the maf readings across the board, as much as I understand.

I never hear of anyone talking about fooling around with cam timing. Are there no significant gains there?

I think what I'm going to do (maybe) is the 72mm pulley and injectors. I'm not sure at this point if a fuel pump upgrade is needed. I'll have to talk to Matt and see what else he thinks it can handle, if anything. It would be ideal to build in enough pump and injectors to go E85, however I don't know that I want to push the stock short block that far. (The guys I'm dealing with feel confident however the stock short block will handle an extra 60 to 80 rwhp). I'll have them re-adjust the shift points downward again after the retune and start from there. If it can go 11.8-11.9 I will probably just leave it there.

I think part of the diminished performance from last night is I brake stalled it a little higher than my best run, however I figured I had plenty of room to spare with the revised shift points. I'm pretty sure I can at least match my best time with a better launch, as I lost .05 on my 60' compared to my best 60' time when I did the 11.98.

Also no one has mentioned the extra weight of the new balancer. That's additional rotating weight, however I don't know how much weight actually makes a difference. It seems hard to believe it would lose .2 because of it though.

I've thought of selling and putting a blower on my '17 supercab...but it just doesn't turn me on the way the rcsb does.

Looking at that dyno, I think you just need more power. I'm probably putting down 600whp right now, and considering our trucks run similar 60fts and are similar weight, that should give you an idea of what you need to run an 11.5. It doesn't help SAR seems to have **** DA's, if you came to Little River up north you'd probably gain a 10th or more as their DA's have been well below 1000ft for the last few weekends. Its something like 3% power per 1000ft...so before you even stage at SAR you were down 20-30hp on the day's we've been racing.

You have a nice truck, and its all you...keep it. Start cheap and work your way up, a set of injectors and a pulley is the cheapest and fastest way to add some power, followed by a pump and E85. That's where I would draw the line personally....anything after that just gets stupid expensive. Wish I had picked up a 2018 with the 10 speed before I started blowing all this money on my current truck, but alas there will always be something new and faster eventually.

This... Exactly....

It's a never-ending cycle. As soon as you get the latest and greatest there is always something in the works coming out that's better.

Well it is a mustang dyno. I'm surprised with the exhaust mods I have that the power is still that much lower than yours....except of course for your pulley, injectors and throttle body. I like the idea of e85 and all the added benefits it represents, however it just isn't easy enough to find when I want it, and then the 30% reduction in fuel mileage (not that it matters). It's more of a convenience factor at this point. (aside from the crappy rod issue with the additional power). I personally feel that there's room for one size smaller pulley so I think that's probably what I will do. It won't be a complete retune he said, maybe an hour on the dyno dialing in the a/f ratios.

You know they're making stand alone controllers now or are about to for 10 speed conversions into earlier vehicles. MaxV's mustang has the 6m and he was getting ready to do an 6r80 swap but is holding off because of the rumored availability of being able to swap to the newer 10 speed.

I would like the 10 speed also, but the cost at this point I'm sure would be astronomical.

You know when I started all this, the truck basically picked up 60 rwhp after all the mods. That certainly doesn't seem like enough to knock a second off the elapsed times from start to finish. It amounted to basically .6 for 60 rwhp. If I can pick up 20 with a retune after the pulley and injector swap, that may very well put me in the 11.8 range without beating the crap out of it and spinning it to a really high rpm. I think if I do anything, that's what I'll do.

so keep an eye out for a 72mm pulley lol

Before I do anything else to the truck, I'm going to do the fuel pump fuse relocation kit. There's a huge thread on here about the fuse #27 melting down and causing all kinds of problems. I'm going to do that first before I go back to the track or do a pulley and injector swap.

Found these on Ebay
And And here (cheapest)

For pulleys you have two choices, VMP or Palm Beach Dyno...though PBD doesn't make a direct 72mm pulley. The smaller the pulley, the more of a risk belt slip is, and I strongly suggest a larger idler pulley to help reduce belt slip with anything smaller then 75mm supercharger pulley. I'm personally using a 90mm VMP idler pulley, however there are many different options for Idlers. There is also 100mm idler pulleys, though you will need to do some minor filling to the front cover to clear those, but the larger the idler the more belt wrap there. There is also something called a Hasty Bracket which gives you the most belt wrap for the 6 rib kits, and is available on facebook.

PBD 73mm pulley
VMP 72mm
PBD 70mm pulley (if you are feeling frisky)

90mm idler (one I'm using). However there are several options for idlers.

I believe our trucks are different. I'm not sure all those parts you referenced will work on mine as the blower belt on mine is closest to the timing cover. Maybe I can contact Roush and see what they suggest.

Thanks by the way for all the info

My truck is the same, blower belt closest to timing cover. Timing covers should be interchangeable between our years, and injectors are also the same

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.f15...36800f53be.jpg

There you go....thanks for the pic. What length belt are you running with that 72mm pulley?

I'm currently running the gates rpm belt that's 81.5''

I'm thinking with the smaller blower pulley but the larger idler that perhaps I can use the same belt. I went to a shorter belt when we installed the 75mm pulley. the original belt with the 80 was 82.5.

If you upgrade your injectors let me know. I'm looking for a set of 47's. I'm not sure what you're running now.

I am running the 47's that came with the blower kit

Im using the stock length Roush belt, standard gates black. It’s also the original belt, 29000 miles on it. I have a new one ready to go on but I’m being lazy. I have no indications of belt slip with my 72mm blower pulley with the 90mm idler.

You check Ebay? They pop up for cheap often, though brand new they are 250 or less on sale most places

What's the original pulley size?

80mm, though the stage 2 with the 75mm uses the same belt

Check zpe inc. Their pullies are in the $170 range

...

Start at the back of the truck, work forward.

if you moved your shift points higher then the dyno showed power.

you might want to re dyno pull to that rpm and see what’s going on.

gen 1s don’t do what gen 2 and 3 do.

i still say start at the back of the truck.

Tire, suspension, gear, ect

Thanks, I understand after doing some research about the differences in the heads between gen I and gen II, and I shouldn't expect the same performance from mine as BadCon's or anyone else with a gen II or later. I honestly hadn't delved that far into it to realize the differences. I'm sure it would take significant cash to have a consistent mid 11 truck, which at this point I'm not ready to do. I believe I will go to the 72mm pulley and larger injectors, and probably turn the shift points back down a little and be satisfied with a 11.8-11.9 truck. I've put too much into this one getting it to look and ride and run well, and of course it was paid for long ago, so I'm going to stick with it as is for a while.

I am wondering however if my blower kit is compatible with gen II heads. There are several low mileage gen II motors available within about 200 miles or so and might consider at some point a switch to a gen II motor. It would be cheaper than starting over with a 15-17 truck.

that wouldn’t be a bad idea for future planning.

also iirc you have the Roush blower, might want to look into a vmp gen 3 head unit swap

That'll cost him more then a gen 2 coyote lol, those VMP blowers are not cheap. The gen 3 blower is not needed for an 11 second truck, his Roush blower will be more then adequate for his power goals, and is more in line with the capabilities of his current engine. He has 3 pulley sizes left to go on his current blower, and that's before he looks at different size crank pulleys, and several areas where he can still open up performance...if he wanted to hit 9's then VMP gen 3 all the way, that's a 1000hp+ blower, but for his goals the 2.3L TVS can hit 800hp and has pushed many mustangs into the single digits in the 1/4th. My recommended prescription is pretty much what I'm running, 72mm pulley, bigger injectors, and if more is needed a bigger throttle body. That right there is mid 11's all day long, but if still more is needed then a bigger pump with a BAP and E85.

Im not that up to date on the 2.3 setups, but my thinking is that after he drops a pulley or so his iat's will jump and it becomes diminishing returns.

The larger/more efficient blowers move more cool air at a lower blower speed and give more room on the current engine.

Also there are plenty of used vmp gen 2/gen 2r's that people will want to sell to upgrade to gen 3.

I sure you can get a head unit cheap as vmp doesn't pay much for trade in and its only good for some like @rojizostang

Just my thoughts

my buddy's 2.3 ford performance blower setup on e85 in his 14 mustang does high 9's, so yeah the blower is pretty stout.

He is still well within the efficiency range of the 2.3l TVS, and isn't even spinning it all that hard at 11psi with the 75m pulley. He's also got an ice tank he uses at the track, and 3...yes 3 heat exchangers on the truck. IAT's are not an issue for him lol, I looked at his setup and its way overkill but does a good job. If he was running a 63mm pulley with an overdrive crank pulley, I'd be concerned about IAT's, but not at a his relatively low boost level.

well I didn't start out to run 3 heat exchangers, it just kind of happened, lol. but at the track I don't use them at all, I bypass them. you can't run ice water through them without them forming a lot of condensation and dripping water everywhere.

really what I would like to know at this point (for future purposes) is if my current blower will match up with the gen II heads. I understand there are some differences with the intake ports, but I don't know if it's a deal breaker or not.

BadCon is right, I'm not really wanting to switch to another head unit...it's a $4k swap, sending them my old blower. A low mileage gen II to motor can be had at around $2600-2800 locally.

It might even be just as cheap (LOL) to just build the current motor with better rods and pistons, and then have perhaps some work done on the existing gen I heads, instead of starting out with a gen II motor and going from there. Space is also an issue as I don't really have room to store a standby motor anywhere.

Oh btw with the datalogging we did Friday, the highest ait2f's so far are 111 degrees. that was on the return road.

edit: with iats that low, and boost low, pulley down

Im not hip to the pulley sizes but if your only running low boost, I would start there and see what you can do.

If you have to get bigger injectors to run the smaller pulley, get ones big enough to run e85 even if you dont run it.

If you have it locally and you race your truck it would be the easest way to push your current motor to the limit, just pulley down...

that seems to be the consensus.

I suppose high or low boost is subjective, more or less. one person tells me 11lbs on a coyote is a lot of boost, another not so much. I think the starting compression ratio is 10.6, so it's not the same as a mustang motor where the compression is more to start with. when we went form the 80mm pulley to the 75, it basically picked up 1.5lbs of boost, iirc. going to the 72mm pulley would probably be only 1 more pound of boost, putting me in the 12lb range or just over.

so the next question would be, is that considered low, medium or high boost on a gen I f150 (with 10.6 compression to start with) ...relative to the stock compression and stock pistons and rods. Perhaps I should consider the 70mm pulley that BadChad referenced in his link in on of the earlier posts. that should put me around 12.5lbs of boost. Then of course belt slip may become an issue?

this might be apple and oranges, the 2015-17 whipple guys pretty much have to run a 3.500 pull to make good power (15psi)

the 2018+ guys have to keep it around 10-12 on 93 or knock is will cause a trade off (the power gained by added air is stolen by reduced timing)

don't the 2018 motors have like 12 to 1 compression? I can see why they would have to dial back the boost.

yes, 12:1 vs your 10.5:1

really it be come a head flow isssue, you will reach a point where power will fall if you try and stuff too much in.


call vmp and ask what the highest boost you can run is.

I won’t use them for tuning but they can tell you which one to get and sell it too you

ask about fuel also and get back on the dyno

well as I was reading earlier, the gen II motors have bigger valves and different intake ports than the gen I and flow better, so it would make sense that spinning a gen II motor in a higher rpm range would be beneficial. with the gen I heads and 410 gears, probably keeping the rpms lower and shifting sooner to keep it more where it's able to accelerate at a greater rate would work better. It sort of makes sense (at least to me) that spinning the gen I motor didn't gain the better elapsed times I was hoping for (in retrospect). if I can add power with a smaller pulley and still keep the shift points down some, I think I could still gain a couple tenths form the best so far of 11.98....I think...anyway i'm saying the powerband is lower on my motor than the gen II's. I was able to do better 60' times than Chad and Ecks (and they're both 4wd). IIRC our 1/8 mile times were identical, but Chad would pull away and run more mph and better et's on the back half

some ford coyote reading

https://www.diyford.com/ford-coyote-...ormance-guide/

That’s why I said to use you dyno chart to help guide you in shift point selection, that might mean pulley down/ rev higher and see what power does

good idea. I couldn't get ahold of vmp, but I did 5star. he said 12-13lbs is still doable on the gen I motor, stock long block, on 93 octane

as far as the dyno is concerned, it apparently isn't 100% indicative of what's going on at the track. Yes, it's still making power at 6900 rpm, but my theory is that it's already passed its maximum acceleration zone (my terminology), even though the horsepower part of the graph is still climbing. but the dude at 5star agreed that it's not as effective to spin the gen I motor as high as the gen II. so for now i'll depend on the 410 gears and increased boost to accelerate more in the 1/8 mile and just kind of hold on in the back half...just my theory, no science to back anything up.

yeah, the guys that know would be vmp.

well I can't argue with anyone about who to talk to, however I spoke to Chris at 5 star and he says I could swap to the 72mm pulley and still keep the 47lb injectors and the stock fuel pump. That's pretty good news.

We also spoke about the issue with the slower et's at the track with the higher shift points and he agreed that while the truck is still making power at 6900 rpms, it may not in its ideal zone for accelerating, so to speak. This is good news from pretty much every stand point. I feel like I can go to the 72mm pulley without doing anything accept a minor tweak on they dyno and a little datalogging.

sweet.

Sound like you have a very good path forward.

well it seems good to me, however we never know where disaster lurks. Just ask ray-o-vac. I'm sure he's not too happy right now. at least this isn't my daily.

What happened to ray o vac?

edit: I searched and see he is having engine problems

well he thought he blew a head gasket, others are saying it's probably a piston. he has a thread here in this section.

His setup is more aggressive then yours currently, and honestly it all lies in the tune. But once you go outside the confines of the factory box, anything can happen....bad gas, a dirty injector....it only takes one bad combustion event to ruin a motor. Honestly I think it’s hilarious just how much boost a coyote can take, Ford really overbuilt these things for being NA from the factory. When I say your gen 1 is “weaker” then a gen 2 or 3, it’ll still take 600whp pretty reliabily lol....hardly weak.

And to put your mind at ease, with the lower RPM you are turning, the safety goes up exponentially, especially for the OPG’s and the rods.

Sounds like you have a plan going forward. I might need to pulley down myself to keep you and Ecks behind me lol. That 70mm from PBD is looking pretty tempting right now.

I lol to myself all the time when telling people about my stock motor.

ford did good...

I was just using the situation as an example that anything can happen...I wouldn't dare to make a comment on tuning or anything like that. I hope he gets it sorted out at a minimal cost.

You might have to :yes:
I have a few tricks up my sleeve for our next meetup.

Hopefully @rojizostang gets his setup squared away so we can all run some mid 11's

I think I know what you're up to lol. BadChad may not see anything but your tail lights, lol.

I always have the excuse of being old