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2013 F150 KR 4x4 Eco w/ 55k. Unfortunately out of warranty.
I just got the dreaded call from the shop (not dealer) that the evaporator is the cause of the leak. Of course, THE most expensive part, and something I don't think I could tackle solo. I'm fairly adventurous, but... Anyone in North Texas/DFW want to do some shade-tree knuckle busting?!
Anyway, they came to this diag since there was no visible dye anywhere, and that the leak detector was pegging around the vents w/ the AC running.
I wasn't able to talk to the tech, but I have confidence in this shop based on previous experience. However, given the cost, specifically labor, and potential issues after the labor (pulling the dash), I'm trying to do due diligence to make sure (trust, but verify) that is the right diagnosis, and not a lazy diag. I'm working on a second opinion - I just need to find another shop I trust, or one that will let me sit in on the investigation (yea right).
Given - it was low - only 7oz left in the system. Ie, there is definitely a leak. It took approx 4 weeks to leak down that far after a home-fill.
The r134 added has dye - so I plan to inspect again in a few days and see if any dye shows up.
The AllData for the truck says..
NOTE: If an evaporator core leak is suspected, the evaporator core must be vacuum leak tested before it is removed from the vehicle.
But doesn't give any details. Surely this means more than a simple vacuum test? Which includes many more components?
What other things should I check for before going ahead w/ this fix? Is detecting 134 in the vents a sure fire sign of an evap leak? Or worse case, just a leak somewhere inside (the dash?)
Has anyone ever had a successful evap replacement? Another item in the alldata comments to 'be careful' with the rear floor vents, etc... I'm concerned that given the complexity of the system, that it will never be the same again after ripping the dash apart (regardless of who does the work). Would you consider replacing the heater core as well while the dash is ripped apart?
I hate this truck, but I can't afford a new one, so I don't have any choice but to bend over.
So I got the black light after the engine bay last night and sure enough the condensate drain hole lit up. So, it does appear that the evap is leaking.
I got 3 different quotes -- 1 @ $1200 (just the evap), dealer @ ~1500 (evap assembly), and another local car care place at 2k (evap, exp valve, dryer). I was able to speak w/ the master tech (30yr vet) at length at the pricier car care place and felt pretty confident he knew what he was doing. I was surprised he was going to replace the expansion valve. I felt he was honest and sincere, and the valve is a only $150 - a small price compared to the 1k in labor.
One big difference in quotes -- the $1200 quote is just replacing the evap coil (not the heater core, and not the entire assembly), the dealership and local car care place said they could ONLY get the assembly (heater core + evap + blower motor...) which bumped the price up by about $200. (177 for coil, 400 for assembly). Labor seems about the same 8-9 hours due to the auto temp control and center console.
The second local car care place was the only one that insisted on replacing the expansion valve and the dryer. I was actually surprised on that exp valve. From my recent education on a/c systems, I would have expected ALL of them to replace the dryer. Even the service advisor at the dealership said they didn't typically replace the dryer. Its effectively the fuse of an a/c system! The system will be open for quite some time during the 9 hours of labor, and that desiccant is going to get a hefty workout here in North Texas.
I still haven't decided what to do at this point. I think my only option is to get it fixed, and then see how it plays out. I don't want another car payment - so trading it doesn't seem like the smart option.
As far as root cause - I'm hoping that once the evap is pulled out, it turns out to be a stupid mfg defect or a bad initial fill from the factory and not some symptom of another problem (electrolysis?). At least that way, I can rest easier that I won't be doing this again after 3 years. I'm going back to the local place that did the initial diagnosis on Monday to see if I can talk to the poor soul that will have to tear the dash apart.
So I stopped by the shop today and picked up the old/leaky assembly. I pulled the evap out and gave it a good once over w/ the black light in the dark. The expansion valve area lit up. It's hard to say if the expansion valve was the culprit or not, but there was a LOT of dye on the outside of the valve. It's hard to see in this pic, but you can see a light glow on the top edge of the expansion valve and obviously some glow on the inside. I don't know how the lines connect/seal on to the expansion valve thru the firewall. In hindsight, asking them to sniff at the expansion valve and inspect that seal might have saved some cash. At least at this point I don't have to worry about shotty workmanship/bad design on the part of the coil. Hopefully the tech will be able to provide some insight tomorrow on how they hook up.
It was interesting that the fins on the coil were dinged up a little. I would have expected a pristine coil given its location and protection.
I don't know where/if it would have been beneficial to pull off the tubes that connect to the expansion valve and determine if that was the leak. It seems like it was the coil at this point as I don't see any other evidence of dye anywhere around the coil. And there isn't any dye in the assembly either. It's kind of interesting tho that the condensate drain did show a lot of dye -- I'm not sure how/where it drips.
So how's your ac doing now? I think I'm in the same situation with my '13 Fx4. I have the band aid smell and the ac isn't as cold as it used to be. Especially at start up. I'm afraid to take it somewhere as well because I'm afraid my interior will never be the same. I've seen our mechanics replace them on the work trucks(F150's and F250's) but those don't have flow through console or any other options. Hell if I had the machine I'd do it myself.
Interesting story there. I'm glad I decided to replace the heater core too, b/c when they put it all back together, I got a nice sweet smell, and some mist coming out of the vents. It seems the heater core started leaking. Fortunately, it was all covered under warranty, so I was only out some time. (Had I not replaced the heater core, all things considered, it probably would have leaked, and I'd be out another labor charge. $150 for the HC was a smart insurance move.)
But, you're right about the dash -- I had some new rattles that I couldn't track down. It felt like they were under the dash if that makes any sense. A few months later, I hit the remote start on my truck and heard an awful sound -- similar to the tensioner of death videos going around on the Gen1-eco's. I took that opportunity to not find out if there was an actual problem, and I traded it in for a 17 F150. Screw that noise. That truck didn't like me, and I wasn't going to give it another chance to F me.
Then, murphy kick me in the jewels. The new truck has a short in the instrument panel and ultimately had to be replaced. I had my truck for 7 days, then the dealer had it for nearly the rest of the month. I wasn't very fond of my service manager -- I told him what the most likely problem was, but since there wasn't a code, they couldn't do anything about it. He said the process for electrical issues like that was to call the Ford hotline, get instructions, perform instructions, call back with results, repeat ad-naseum. It was painful, and the guy was kind of an ***. Interesting tho, I think they took SOO long replacing the IPC due to the cost of the part. I never saw the invoice, but apparently the vehicle mileage is stored in the IPC, and not the ECU, b/c they had to special order an IPC w/ the mileage of my vehicle. That can't be cheap, and I'm sure that's why that was done as a last resort.
I like the truck now. But, the 17's AC doesn't seem to cool the cab quite as quickly in the Texas heat. It still gets cold, just takes longer.
FWIW, I never really thought there was much of a leak in the expansion valve. There was no bulk of dye anywhere. Maybe you could get lucky and put some leak sealant in and be good to go. If nothing else, knowing what I know now, I'd go get some refrigerant w/ dye, a black light, and do my own initial investigation.
Interesting story there. I'm glad I decided to replace the heater core too, b/c when they put it all back together, I got a nice sweet smell, and some mist coming out of the vents. It seems the heater core started leaking. Fortunately, it was all covered under warranty, so I was only out some time. (Had I not replaced the heater core, all things considered, it probably would have leaked, and I'd be out another labor charge. $150 for the HC was a smart insurance move.)
But, you're right about the dash -- I had some new rattles that I couldn't track down. It felt like they were under the dash if that makes any sense. A few months later, I hit the remote start on my truck and heard an awful sound -- similar to the tensioner of death videos going around on the Gen1-eco's. I took that opportunity to not find out if there was an actual problem, and I traded it in for a 17 F150. Screw that noise. That truck didn't like me, and I wasn't going to give it another chance to F me.
Then, murphy kick me in the jewels. The new truck has a short in the instrument panel and ultimately had to be replaced. I had my truck for 7 days, then the dealer had it for nearly the rest of the month. I wasn't very fond of my service manager -- I told him what the most likely problem was, but since there wasn't a code, they couldn't do anything about it. He said the process for electrical issues like that was to call the Ford hotline, get instructions, perform instructions, call back with results, repeat ad-naseum. It was painful, and the guy was kind of an ***. Interesting tho, I think they took SOO long replacing the IPC due to the cost of the part. I never saw the invoice, but apparently the vehicle mileage is stored in the IPC, and not the ECU, b/c they had to special order an IPC w/ the mileage of my vehicle. That can't be cheap, and I'm sure that's why that was done as a last resort.
I like the truck now. But, the 17's AC doesn't seem to cool the cab quite as quickly in the Texas heat. It still gets cold, just takes longer.
FWIW, I never really thought there was much of a leak in the expansion valve. There was no bulk of dye anywhere. Maybe you could get lucky and put some leak sealant in and be good to go. If nothing else, knowing what I know now, I'd go get some refrigerant w/ dye, a black light, and do my own initial investigation.
Good luck.
I may have a mechanic from work that may do it on the side when he has time. He said he can do it in half a day. He does them all the time as we have all Ford's in our fleet. He did say the flow through is more extensive so we'll see. I really don't want to do the stop leak as I don't think it works and from what I've been told it's bad on the a/c vacuum machine. Our mechanic said they have dye from the factory and mine did. When I put a can of Freon you could see the dye after. We checked around for leaks but couldn't find anything. It wasn't till he took the gauges off and I smelt the band aid smell in the air. I asked him what the smell was because that's what it smells like inside the truck. He said that's refrigerant oil so it has to be the evaporator.
1 - properly installed evaporator cores corrode from the outside in not inside out.
2 - evaporators leak more when not in use than when in use as the pressure is obviously much higher when not in use.
3 - the better way to leak check an evaporator is to use the leak tester...but let the truck sit for a day maybe in the hot sun to get that cabin hot adding a few psi to the core. Then, get that tester ready,...quickly open a door and stick the probe down in the vent closest to the core. That should usually set it off.
Note many folks test it while running which is a) less percent of refrigerant due to low pressure and mixed air and b) a velocity across that tester pickup will often erroneously set off the alarm.
Evap leaks are often difficult to diagnose. But one general rule of thumb: if the vehicle leaks more when it is running,....it is on the high side and often a hose fitting/crimp. If it leaks less when in use and more when parked...say a weekend only drive. Then it is more likely on the low side and generally the evaporator.
I hope i didn't ramble too much. But years ago I broke down and bought a leak detector and can't count how many times I've used it. Maybe you can borrow one...or worst case. park you truck at the shop one night....mid afternoon have the tech come out with you and test that closest vent. See what you get. If nothing, start it up with the fan on low and see if you get a fresh dose of refrigerant.
refrigerant is much heavier than air....so the drain location is often a good place to check as well. Die may be present as well.
Back in the day, GM evaps could be tested by pulling the fan resistor assembly out of the evap case (under hood LoL) and stick that probe down in there. Sounded like the radar detector going off in a speed trap.
I had one vehicle recently sit for a week. I cracked the door and the detector went off before i could even get in the truck.
Disclaimer: I'm am not a professional mechanic or professional anything else for that matter. I've been doing this a long time which means I'm old and sometimes just totally full of ****....in other peoples opinion.
I may have a mechanic from work that may do it on the side when he has time. He said he can do it in half a day. He does them all the time as we have all Ford's in our fleet. He did say the flow through is more extensive so we'll see. I really don't want to do the stop leak as I don't think it works and from what I've been told it's bad on the a/c vacuum machine. Our mechanic said they have dye from the factory and mine did. When I put a can of Freon you could see the dye after. We checked around for leaks but couldn't find anything. It wasn't till he took the gauges off and I smelt the band aid smell in the air. I asked him what the smell was because that's what it smells like inside the truck. He said that's refrigerant oil so it has to be the evaporator.
Your right, dont do the stop leak unless you are going to trade it!
1 - properly installed evaporator cores corrode from the outside in not inside out.
2 - evaporators leak more when not in use than when in use as the pressure is obviously much higher when not in use.
3 - the better way to leak check an evaporator is to use the leak tester...but let the truck sit for a day maybe in the hot sun to get that cabin hot adding a few psi to the core. Then, get that tester ready,...quickly open a door and stick the probe down in the vent closest to the core. That should usually set it off.
Note many folks test it while running which is a) less percent of refrigerant due to low pressure and mixed air and b) a velocity across that tester pickup will often erroneously set off the alarm.
Evap leaks are often difficult to diagnose. But one general rule of thumb: if the vehicle leaks more when it is running,....it is on the high side and often a hose fitting/crimp. If it leaks less when in use and more when parked...say a weekend only drive. Then it is more likely on the low side and generally the evaporator.
I hope i didn't ramble too much. But years ago I broke down and bought a leak detector and can't count how many times I've used it. Maybe you can borrow one...or worst case. park you truck at the shop one night....mid afternoon have the tech come out with you and test that closest vent. See what you get. If nothing, start it up with the fan on low and see if you get a fresh dose of refrigerant.
refrigerant is much heavier than air....so the drain location is often a good place to check as well. Die may be present as well.
Back in the day, GM evaps could be tested by pulling the fan resistor assembly out of the evap case (under hood LoL) and stick that probe down in there. Sounded like the radar detector going off in a speed trap.
I had one vehicle recently sit for a week. I cracked the door and the detector went off before i could even get in the truck.
Disclaimer: I'm am not a professional mechanic or professional anything else for that matter. I've been doing this a long time which means I'm old and sometimes just totally full of ****....in other peoples opinion.
The drain was the first place I looked but found nothing. We did try the sniffer but nothing either. But I've read that' sometimes it will not pick it up due to the leak being so small. Maybe I can carefully drill a small hole in the case and place the sniffer in there. I could always plug the hole after.
The drain was the first place I looked but found nothing. We did try the sniffer but nothing either. But I've read that' sometimes it will not pick it up due to the leak being so small. Maybe I can carefully drill a small hole in the case and place the sniffer in there. I could always plug the hole after.
I would think a leak of any size would be detectable via the vents with the ac on low/recirc using a good sniffer.
09-20-2016, 08:57 PM
AC cool, Evaporator leak/replacement (detailed)
and something I don't think I could tackle solo. I'm fairly adventurous, but... Anyone in North Texas/DFW want to do some shade-tree knuckle busting?! 
