3.5EB Cam phaser issues: Let's discuss possible causes :)
 

Hey guys, since many of us have nothing better to do than kill some time (ha ha), I just wanted to start a new thread of how to try to avoid the dreaded cam phaser issue... if we can. So let's start with the facts. And so far we have two:
1. We all know there's an inherent design problem with the cam phasers, since too many are failing, and they can also fail multiple times. Having said that, other engines can last for a long time without any issues, and the failure mileages are all over the place, from early teens to 6 figures.
2. This is the only failure fact we have, courtesy of a tech replacing one on a Raptor (on Youtube): The part that breaks is a hard plastic pin inside the phasers.

Now, many of us were wrongly thinking it was just an oil issue, meaning wrong viscosity, using cheap oil, and most importantly, not doing frequent enough oil changes. But after a myriad of afflicted owners reported doing 5K OCIs with full synthetic oils, that reasoning went out the window. So what else could be at play? I think I have the answer to that, but it will trigger more questions. And who made me think about that was MDXLT, who just said on a related thread (where I expanded on that), that 'driving style' might be a factor. So let's get deeper into that, to finally come up with some potential answers to minimize this crap :D.

We already know what causes the cam phaser isues: hard plastic pin (inside a metal sleeve) failure, as you can see on the video below. I also posted another video of how the BorgWarner cam phasers work, in case it wasn't clear from the first video. So the immediate question that follows is this: Which driving conditions cause the greatest loads on those pins? If we avoid those conditions, we could extend, or even eliminate, the problem altogether folks :). But first, we need to know those conditions, right? Is there a modern engine expert who knows for a fact what causes the greatest loads on those pins? My educated guess is lugging the engine, meaning heavy loads at low rpm. If it turns out to be the case, just avoiding that scenario (which is bad for the entire engine anyway), we could eliminate the problem. Or at least, not repeat it, for those with it already. Se let's get some answers.

But as a final thought, I'm already doing everything I can to prevent this issue. I switched to Mobil1 0/30 (with OEM filter) on the first oil change at 3K miles (better/quicker lubrication on cold starts), and have changed it every 5K miles, with the last one just done at 13K miles. And I always drive in sport mode, and have rarely lugged the engine, always driving with 10th locked out, and many times 9th, and even 8th. I hardly ever run the engine like a diesel, meaning below 2K rpm. And on the highways, I always locked out 9th on slight inclines, since the engine feels a bit strained at 2K rpm at that speed, to bring it up to around 2,300 rpm. Instant fuel economy goes a hair up, and boost down. And yes, with boost, we're obviously loading the engine, but at higher rpm, the cam phasers should have less load, but that's what I want to find out too :D.

Quality oil and oil change intervals that are not excessive. Synthetic if you can swing it.

I do not follow the logic of switching to Mobil 1 0w30 to prevent the issue and provide better lubrication on startup. From Mobil 1 website using the comparison tool:

Mobil 1 ESP 0w30 Kinematic Viscosity at 40C = 63 (Rated four circles for turbo protection in comparison tool)
Mobil 1 0w30 Advanced Fuel Economy Kinematic Viscosity at 40C = 62.9 (Rated two circles for turbo protection in comparison tool)
Mobil 1 ESP 5w30 ESP Kinetic Viscosity at 40C = 61 (Rated four circles for turbo protection in comparison tool)
Mobil 1 5w30 Extended Performance (EP) Kinematic Viscosity = 59.8 (Rated 3 circles for turbo protection)
Motorcraft Syn Blend 5w30 Kinematic Viscosity = 66.8 at 40C

So, the Mobil 1 5w30 has "slightly" better cold start viscosity than Mobil 1 0w30. I am not knocking your choice of oil or viscosity just stating that a 0w30 does not necessarily equate to better cold start performance than 5w30. My intent is not to derail with another oil thread just pointing out a "fact" from the oil manufacturers website. It would take an independent lab testing every major oil brand to truly determine performance at lower temperatures since the testing standards only cover 40 & 100C. One point worth noting from Mobil 1's website: Mobil 1 0w30 ESP and 5w30 offer better turbo protection than Mobil 1 0w30 Advanced Fuel Economy, which I assume would apply to any area of the engine subject to higher shear stresses. I guess my point is that I seriously doubt oil plays a major factor in the failures.

I believe the VCT actuator pin is only locked at cold start when there is a lack of oil to control the actuator. I don't believe driving style will relate to the failure in any way. This would also explain why the failure only seems to affect cold starts.

Cheap oil filters too that allow drain back so its almost like starting up from a fresh oil change. I only use Motorcraft and @ 24k Its still quite at start up but my (they think) HPFP is tick tick tick when warmed up.

Your statements make sense, brother. But don't honestly think it's the only thing at play, since how could you explain the wide range of mileages on affected engines? But it definitely makes sense to me. Based on that assessment, it seems crucial to me to use 0/30 vs 5/30, for oil to lubricate the cam phasers quicker. How much does that help is up for debate, but I'm being the perfect guinea pig for that, since I started since the first oil change. Finally, if the issue occurs at start-up, what exactly is breaking the pin? THAT I don't get. Any ideas?

All you posted is useless for cold starts man, since my garage is never at 104F (40C). And by cold start, I mean the first start of the day regardless of ambient temperature (from really cold to warm), which for my typically range from 40F to 90F. Thinner oil when engine is cold is ALWAYS better at start up, so no need to argue the obvious. If you want to stick to 5/30, it's perfectly fine, but I prefer better cold start protection, since that's when the great majority of engine wear occurs. Since I change the oil religiously at 5K max, never abuse or work the truck hard, and about 90% of my mileage is highway, not worried at all using M1 0/30. Finally, if what Harry said is true (see quote above), 0/30 is our best weapon to fight cold-start lack of lubrication IMO :D.

Your quote didn't load. Sorry about missing it above. You're absolutely correct about suggesting that, but unfortunately, it doesn't eliminate the cam phaser issue. However, it's ALWAYS better for the entire engine to do that, so I do it anyway :). You didn't mention oil filter, but I always use OEM, since for sure it has the correct pressure for the relief valve (nobody knows what it is, so hard to buy something comparable). And when your engine is prone to issues, the more reason to stick with that. And it's dirt cheap, so no reason not to buy it IMO :D. I use 5K OCIs with M1 0/30. No need for any better oil when replaced at 5K miles IMO, and it's also cheaper at less than $40 at Walmart all included, so great protection at a very reasonable price.

There was a video posted here.....it was of a raptor but still gen2. The mechanic was holding the vct and showed what the design issues were. The problem isn't oil related.

My truck is going in soon. All of the fanboys in denial need to realize Ford equipped hundreds of thousands of these trucks (if not a million) with flawed phasers before landing on a solution after several iterations.

I've been running full synthetic with a Motorcraft filter changed every 5000 since day one. I developed this issue at about 75,000 miles. The only related thing was a long road trip which was about 800 miles in a day. Noise started just after that trip. Not towing anything, no mountains or anything that worked the engine harder than normal. Previously been on plenty of road trips father then that one with no issue. I'm not sure there's a way to find out if driving styles effect this issue at all. I'm in and out of sport mode quite often but will use normal mode on long highway trips. I think a good maintenance schedule is important but won't prevent defects in manufacturing and design from showing up eventually. I'm just hoping the repair doesn't cause more issues then it fixes.

I just had SSM 48445 performed at my local dealer. I changed my oil at the 2,500 mile mark, 5k miles, and then 5k miles thereafter like clock work. My truck started ticking during idle at just over 5k miles. Dealer has changed the oil since new with semi-synthetic and motorcraft filters. I did the first oil change at 2,500 miles and used the same Motorcraft semi-synthetic 5-30 that I assume the dealer uses and a motorcraft filter.

It didn't start rattling at start up until about 20k miles. There was no driving style that I was going to perform to prevent this. In my opinion, ALL OF THEM up until they changed the cam phaser design (supposedly build dates AFTER July of 2018), will eventually do it. It doesn't matter what you do. My truck has a build date of November of 2017 (2018 model).
My truck had developed a really loud tick, especially on the passenger bank. If you look at the technician comments, he stated "TIMING CHAIN TENSIONER ON BAK TWO BLEW APART AS IT WAS REMOVED".

I can only assume that the very loud ticking I had early on was a result of the failing secondary timing chain tensioner, and then at 20k, the start-up rattle started, from the defective cam phasers.

The truck sounds like it should now. No start up rattle, and no ticking except for the faint injector tick at idle.
I let it sit for a few days after I got it back, because I was still borrowing a loaner truck from my company. After a three day soak, I fired it up with remote start, and it sounded just fine.

I wanted to note (because some eagle eye will notice the mileage in/out on the service ticket) that I took the truck in at first to get my dash pad replaced. Mine was warped bad. (this dash repair came out perfect, no scratches or rattles/squeaks) I left it there for a few days before they could get to it and approve this SSM for the dash. I got approved, and came and picked up the truck while they ordered the dash. I dropped it back off, after weeks of waiting for the dash, and then I just decided to leave it there until they could diagnose my ticking and start-up rattle. It took exactly six weeks to the day to get the dash replaced, get the rattle diagnosed, and then get the rattle fixed. That is why the mileage spread is so wide, but I was the one putting the miles on the truck not them while waiting on the dash because they never closed out the ticket I guess.


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For future reference, here are my two problem children. First vid is the start up rattle. Second vid is the constant cam phaser/secondary tensioner problem tick/knock.

anyone have the pdf for SSM48445

I could never find this in PDF form, so I just copied it to a word file and gave it to my service adviser when I dropped off my truck:
Effective Jan. 13, 2020

SSM 48445 - 2017-2018 F-150, 2018-2019 Expedition/Navigator - 3.5L EcoBoost - Ticking/Tapping Or Rattle Type Noise On Start Up After A Cold Soak

Some 2017-2018 F-150 vehicles built on or before 10-Jul-2018 and 2018-2019 Expedition/Navigator vehicles built on or before 8-Apr-2019 with 3.5L EcoBoost may exhibit tick, tap, or rattle type noises from top of engine front cover for 2-5 seconds after a cold start. Replace all 4 VCT units (6256/6C525) and update the PCM calibration. Do not replace other camshaft timing related components unless inspection identifies a concern. Refer to the Workshop Manual, Section 303-01. Claim labor to replace VCTs using published labor operations and PCM programming using M-time. Dealers should order parts only when required to complete a repair. Once the parts are ordered, the vehicle may be returned to the customer to drive. This condition does not affect long term durability or performance.

thank you

Hey Harry, had some time to kill, and studied both the BorgWarner and Raptor failure video I linked on my first post, and the latter clearly shows the FULL RETARD pin that broke, meaning it's the one that locks on AUTO START/STOP. It wasn't the 'neutral' (middle) one, which locks when shutting engine down, but it's supposed to release upon start-up. But later on the video, it shows that it could lock on cold start up, so kind of confusing... but it's not the one which broke anyway, so a moot point now. I'm starting to think the issue might be with the stupid A/S/S system, no? From now on, it'd be great to hear from those affected if they used it or not. I've never used it on purpose (just twice by accident). The BorgWarner video wasn't clear if that pin also locks on regular hot starts, but I've heard those A/S/S starts can be quite hard on engines, but honestly don't know for sure if true or not. Hopefully an expert can chime in and comment :).

As a final thought, it's obvious that some event is exerting brutal force on that plastic pin to basically shear it off, but not sure what can it be. But at least from the Raptor, it's clear we're talking about the full retard pin. The middle one has a torx-like top (like the BW video shows), and the full retard has a smooth sleeve, just like the one shown on the Raptor video. Plus you can clearly see the moving inner part in the full retard position, leaving no doubt that's the one. Hopefully that might be it, and for those of us who never use A/S/S, maybe have a reason to hope. Ha ha. Keep the ideas coming, folks.

If one of us could engineer an updated cam phaser then Ford wouldn’t be the only one knocking on the door to buy the part. Phaser problems are happening to other manufacturers as well, in particular GM 3.6L high feature V6 engines. I’ve done a ton of those beasts. (As well as stretched timing chains.)

All of those GM engines seemed to have the same cause which was change intervals being extended too long and/or resulting low oil levels. Also see more than a few that have a failed air/oil separator (pcv) that caused oil consumption. Damage to the phasers is on startup.

And...... GM also quietly updated the oil filter on these engines. The new filter was allegedly to handle new increased oil pressures.

Does Ford have an oil/filter problem? Doesn’t appear to be the case as the failures are happening way to early in engine life. But I thought the comparison was still worth mentioning.

I'm happy to see a thread like this to dig into this issue in somewhat the suggested manner I proposed. So, what I gather, the issue initially starts with a plastic pin in the phaser that fails causing the noise issue but, really doesn't pose any other problem than the noise after start up and that the a/s/s may be a catalyst along with cold starts.

It amazes me that they would go to all the trouble of engineering a precision, machined part like this using a strong, metal structure and add what seems to be the only plastic part in the whole structure. This can only be an engineering decision because this piece is too insignificant to be a 'bean counter' piece. It would bring up the question of what kind of testing was done to have confidence that this plastic piece would be durable enough to last and why they just didn't use a piece of billet aluminum or steel for this piece. Too bad we don't have access to the engineer(s) that developed these phasers so, with that, all I can say is, 'what were you thinking?'.

Now they have a new, improved phaser as a replacement but, I haven't seen or read what's 'new and improved' about it. Anybody know?

I would like to think that there are engineers who chose plastic for a reason. The only thing that comes to mind is that this piece is a sacrificial one that prevents catastrophic failure. Perhaps if it were metal and failed it would cause severe damage?

That would suggest that the phaser is designed to fail in the first place if they were thinking this piece would prevent catastrophic failure. That would be a design flaw in the first place. Why would they do that? Why not design it not to fail in the first place? With that, I'd like to know why plastic was chosen when similar pieces used are metal.

Why design that not to fail? Ford only owes you long enough to get through the warranty period. Beyond that, you’re obviously SOL and hopefully you come back to them for phasers on up to an engine. Or trade in for a new vehicle.

That’s what makes the stockholders happy (on all makes, really) in our get-rich-quick scheme clown show society now.


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2013 with 3.5 eco with 125,000 kms (78,000 miles)

Replaced timing chains phasers, etc three times.
On the last go-round...we did a thorough check.
Oil pressure at the block was 7 psi below ford spec. Engine was clean inside.


Currently driving a 2018 Lariat with 5.0

I wonder why no one has tried to repair a failed phaser. They seem to come apart fairly easy enough. You might even be able to get that plastic piece machined in steel if that is the only issue with it. If it could be repaired, it would seem that it might be cheaper repair if that is possible.

Nice discussion folks :D. Nice way to kill time. Ha ha. Okay, let's start with WHO makes the phasers. It's a Borg Warner design, but the question is if Ford buys them from them, or builds them in house under a royalty agreement, kind of like many automakers do with the ZF-8 transmissions. If they buy them, my guess is they probably didn't know of that design 'issue' until they started having issues. If they knew, then I agree it was stupid to use plastic. Maybe they needed something light to be able to be easily pushed by oil pressure, but BW should have designed the phasers with a more durable material in there. An aluminum alloy should have been stronger than plastic, only marginally heavier, and still use it as a sacrificial part, if that was the intent.

Having said that, what is striking to me, is after finding out how common this problem is, how come they didn't start to fix it immediately? And THAT is my main beef with Ford. Not only it costs a fortune in warranty funds to fix, and the dread for owners to deal with a massive dismantling just for that, but in my case, it might be the reason I'd sell the truck, and not buy a Ford again until I go all around the rest of the manufacturers again. I had severe issues with my last top-of-the-line F-150 back in '97 (piston slap on the 5.4 engine), and the top '98 Navigator too, which forced me to sell them very early, and didn't come back to Ford until now (2018). I just don't know what to make of this issue; I've seen more and more early cases recently (as low as a few thousands of miles), while others last close to 6-digits, with apparently no trend at all. I'm thinking it might be A/S/S, which I don't use, but we need to hear from current and past problematic engines to see if that's a trend. I don't see any other possible trend, so we'll see :D.

Sorry for resurrecting the thread, but wanted to give back after tearing into mine. I needed to understand what's going on, to the best one can, before putting it back together. Hopefully it helps other adventurous souls.