Need Gray Haired Man Help
 

Truck;


1995 F150 302 ext. cab 4X4 w/ 4r70w trans.


Looking into doing a full drivetrain swap, here's what has peaked my interest;


Gearstar 4r70w (stage 2) its expensive but can handle 450hp/460tq and comes with a good warranty and I plan on keeping the truck.


Monster Machines 4r70w (stage 2) Cheaper due to non custom make but has same power capabilities, still pricey with a good warranty though.


Called Jasper, they want WAY too much for the rebuilt thing they're selling with the Jasper name, plus another $1k for shipping of core return and residential nonsense and blah blah it's TOO much money for a non reputable place in my eyes.


The real question is; ENGINE?!


I've looked into the ford racing x302 engines with the gt40 heads and 1 piece rear main seal however I cant see myself getting a long block that only produces 300hp and costs $6,000 and having to put a new timing cover on, and bolting an old EFI intake with weak injectors when everyone clearly said to get 24# injectors, which would require a new tune and this slowly turns from $6k to $7+.....


I haven't called around to have anyone quote a rebuild on my current 302 however I imagine parts/labor will be a lot, and if my block can't handle the new parts then I'm out the money.


Does anyone have a 302 swap they did or a rebuild they did that they wouldn't mind sharing? Doesn't need to be detailed I just wanted an idea of what to do.


Budget build but not too low budget, if its worth it I don't mind paying the money but I just don't see the point in spending $10k on a drivetrain setup that only makes around 250hp to the wheel, I'm not racing or anything but I want a reliable powerful setup.

The 5.8 will practically drop right in, and your truck is MAF so the computer can handle it.

But does the 5.8 produce more power? And if so, enough to wanna do the work? And doesnt the exhaust setup for the egr differ on the 5.8? I know mine goes to the rear of the intake, im pretty sure the 5.8 goes off the right exhaust manifold (or at least thats where ive seen an extra piece to aftermarket headers)

Does a bigger motor make more power than a smaller one? Yea.

It was just a suggestion. Some would think a little extra work to use a bigger engine is worth it.

And a good suggestion at that. If you wanna squeeze more power out of the 302 you start running into stress limits a lot faster than with a 351.
And of course 250 horsepower at the wheels isn't exactly a slouch.

Let me clarify, my issue is time. There is NOTHING wrong with my engine, just doesn't have any power. Short of me finding a centrifugal procharger kit the 302, it isnt a powerful starting point. I like the 351 suggestion but I dont have time to fabricate things for it I.e. egr. Unless its a direct fit (I can understand diff motor mounts) I dont wanna do it. Trucks a Daily driver so turnover time is important. I just wanna hear what you guys think overall so please keep the suggestions coming, im loving it!

I dont think 250 is slouch at all, but I cant see myself spending $6k on a ford racing long block, and another $1k for the intake, throttle body, distributor, injectors etc etc.

Thing is the 302 is an ok motor but... you can get 400 horse out of a 4 cylinder but you will pay a lot to do it, it will be working very hard and will wear out or blow up easier.
302 can produce pretty good horsepower but in a truck you need the torque too.
That's where the 351 comes into the picture - it already produces more h/p and way more torque than a 302. You don't have to build it nearly as crazy to get the h/p levels you want and it will stand up much better.
Thing to do maybe is find a crappy old pos truck with a 351, have it pulled out and built up a bit - mostly top end stuff, and make sure they keep all the little bits to make it work.
I don't know if you've ever had the chance to compare a slightly modded 351 to a 302 in something heavy but really it's night and day. Food for thought anyway

Much appreciated. When you say top end im assuming you mean heads and intake?

Yeah and roller cam and port matching. Look for the block set up to accept the spider for the roller lifters. Bottom end you just really need forged pistons and top quality rings and bearings. You'll want to plan on sending the bottom end assembly out for balancing, that's really important on a rebuild.

The general rule is that 400 on a stock 302 block is about tops. Over that people have had problems with cracking in the lifter valley. Also, The 19# injectors are really only useful to maybe 320HP before they aren't enough. You should be able to have something built for less than 6k. I got a reman long block with a Comp Cam for just under 2k from a local machine shop. Also

Basically....

What is it you plan on doing with the truck?

How much power do you want?

What are you willing to spend?

Are you willing to have it tuned?

Since it's a 4x4 what kind of engine do you want? One more for TQ and off roading, one for more HP on the road, or in the middle?

Chances are you could just have your stock trans rebuilt with some beefier parts cheaper than buying a whole different one. Also, changing out the axle gearing can make a huge difference in how the truck feels to drive.

The truck is old just passed over 250,000 miles, but it was my second vehicle after the 69 Camaro i had and i really don't like car payments or newer vehicles. I've already put a lot of money into the suspension, frame, gas tanks, wheels and tires, interior, basically everything except body and drivetrain. Body's a no-brainer though...

I drive it because I'm 6'9'' and cannot fit comfortably in anything besides a truck.

I dont plan to offroad (dont plan to anyways), i dont plan to race, and considering i took the hitch off to put on a roll pan im not towing either. Overall its an ext cab street truck to me. I just want a powerful setup (mostly hp wise) that'll be a good motor for a long period of time, without spending more than $10k. So here is what i found, lemme know if you think its worth it!

After tedious amounts of research at work I've come to the conclusion of what I am most likely going to do due to my situation.

Engine; Blueprint Crate 302 bored .030 over to a 306, they rate it at 390 hp (with a carb setup).

Tune; Summit pairs with a company called Motorvation and they make custom chips, for $380 they make you a chip-set to tune using your gearing setup, and other stats to engine, trans and rear and make one for your computer to turn the engine tune from a carb to an EFI/MAF setup.

Extras; Going to use a billet higher performance Distributor and get 24# injectors for my fuel rail. (does this require a diff tune/fuel pump or can the stock ones handle it, i have the dual gas tank setup)

Going with the 306 due to the exact everything fit from my 302 over to it, I liked the 351 idea however I just dont see myself having the time, plus this blueprint block is built right with a 4 bolt main and comes with aluminum heads, mild cam, and mostly forged internals. all i need to do is transfer over the top parts and tune it.

Transmission; Was torn between Gearstar and Monster. Going with Monster due to cost, they make a performance 4r70w that can handle 450hp/500tq and its only going to run me $1800 shipped to my door no core.

TOTAL $$; with exhaust, fluids and some parts (engine stand) the project is going to run me $6738 which is perfect (at least i think) for a performance setup that should produce around 320 to the wheel and last a good bit of time (and is warrantied might I add).

Any sort of things i might run into let me know! i.e. better cooling system due to higher performance motor or trans?

I already bought a new 3 row radiator and water pump, what thermostat should i run? and i also bought an external trans fluid cooler to keep it cool.


Thank you again guys for all your input its not going unnoticed!

Might have to trim your shroud a little with the bigger rad

Nice plan.

With that type of setup I'd probably start witha 180 T stat and see how it does. Also, since you're already doing so much to it go ahead and put an electric fan setup on it.

Should I run the fan off ignition power so its always on? Run a switch for it when it gets hotter? Run it off the thermostat wiring so when that opens up the fan cuts on? Also, does this electronic one negate needing the original fan in the timing? If so I can get rid of the shroud and just use the electric fan off the radiator. Lemme know if I missed anything.

Is 1700 cfm enough? I saw a few around 3000 cfm but they go for $300, what does the stock fan produce? 1700 is already a lot to me...

The fans at the auto parts stores have a scale on the box that shows what CFM is good for what displacements.

<<<@!1!@>>>

I'm using a fan from a 95 Thunderbird. Used 4 right angle brackets and was able to mount it directly to the radiator. Used only the high speed wire and have a Flex a lite 31163 setup controlling it all.

You mount the included sending unit in the available port on the thermostat housing. Then adjust it to come one when the thermostat opens. It starts slow so there not a jolt on the electrical system. Then slowly ramps up as the temp goes up so that by 10 degrees over the thermostat opening temp it's running at full speed ( if the temp even gets that high) . It also has a bypass to hook to the AC compressor line so that it automatically goes full speed whenever the compressor is running.

And yes, with an electric fan you can remove the stock shroud and the stock fan.

Awesome info and detail, many thanks! Do they make a water pump without the fan stem or can I just take it off the rotation assembly.

just pull the 4 bolts holding the fan clutch on, remove the fan/ clutch assembly, then put the 4 bolts back it to hold the pump pulley on. One thing to watch for though. When you put the 4 bolts back in theyll stick out the back further and could possibly hit the pump housing. Mine didnt hit but i have worked on a few engines where they did. So turn the pump pulley by hand before throwing the belt back on. If they do hit just buy 4 1/4 in spacers and youll be good to go.

someone suggested an electrical water pump to eliminate lag from the belt, but i figure thatd require a diff belt setup, and a bigger alternator to handle the extra load, and considering im doing the electric fans ill already have a decent increase in draw from it. electrical pumps are good for crazy power motors with small space right? should ji ust keep the mechanical one?

Over the years the only cars we put electric water pumps on were track only cars where you want every bit of hp you can get. Stick with a good quality belt driven pump.

I would also stick with a belt driven water pump. One option is buying a parts truck with a 351 in it, tear it apart and send off to have engine, trans rebuilt how you want. Then install into your truck. While I would recommend the 351 ( I love mine), I think a built 302 would do you just fine. If you said you towed or went off roading a bit, I would push more for a 351, or even better a 408! (bored and stroked 351). but honestly, I think a 302 will do you just fine.

Have you looked at 347s?

I havent, usually seeing those made by ford racing which means $$$$

Just glanced at some 400hp 347s. Guessing you recommended it due to it being a stroker motor. Only question I have is will my stock 302 efi intake and fuel setup be a good fit? Also not too big on wanting to get a new ecm, esp since the 306 I was looking at is also rated at 400hp (obv the 347 has a better power capability and strength internally). Send some suggestions if you can! Thank you sir

I recommended it because its a stoker, which means more tourqe and hp! haha but as far as what your sd set up can handle, im not sure but I know its not a lot. Youd need bigger injectors for 400 hp anyway, 30 lbs injectors, and I don't know much about what the fuel pumps can handle, but im sure you will need ones that can supply a little more. Then you will need a maf ecm, and have it tuned to your engine. That's with a 302 or 347. I seem to remember reading about people setting up both fuel pumps running at once, but maybe that was a dream or wild thought. Im sure its very doable though.

yea thats getting more into it than i have time to. if i had the extra time and cash to run a better fuel setup, as well as intake id honestly just do a 750cfm carb setup with the 347 and a mechanical fuel pump off the block, but considering our trucks are hell with those dual tanks, dual pumps and switch nonsense i think im going to just run the 306, transfer over my efi intake and fuel rail and flash the ecu with a new chip. id do the 347 but then that would mean id need to drop the tanks, put $$ into the pumps, lines, injectors, tune and by the end of the day ill only get an extra 50-60 hp (which isnt bad but not worth it). any ideas on whether to gear the rear differently? i drive the highway daily to work, thought about getting one of those mini transmissions that bolts on the back of the tailshaft and gives you overdrive for every gear electronically. anyone use those? gearvendors is the make if im not mistaken.

read up on this, i think itd be worth it, especially if i ran an aggressive rear gear setup!

https://www.gearvendors.com/hrford4s.html

Im not sure on th gearbox, no experience with them or know anyone who has, but have heard of them. However, I do know of people taking motorcycle engines, putting it in rock crawlers, and bolting up something like a jeep transmission to the rear of the motorcycle engine and its gear box. so you could have gears1-5 on the motorcycle gearbox, while running first on the jeep transmission for example. Gear ratio that I would go with heavily depends on engine power range, tire size, and use of the truck. And as far as the 306, it will still be a good bit more peepy than a stock and worn 302, I just wanted to offer you more options and make you wonder if your making the right choice even more! lol

Im curious to see what people say about this too. seems like a lot of shifting when your to the floor empty. I didn't see a price, and didn't see anything about how it bolts to the transfercase, or if you would bot it to the back of the transfercase( which I would screw you in 4wd, the front wouldn't be controlled by the extra unit).

$3000, and it bolts up to the end of a tail-shaft that comes with it, only thing i dont see is a new drive-shaft, and im NOT about to cut mine and reweld it...

Ok so here is the legit issue at hand now (not the off topic gearvendor topic), with running 24# injectors I cannot use the factory pumps, they simply dont have enough power. So this brings 2 questions

1. Where can I find a set of pumps that will take care of the extra flow needed.
2. What brand injectors do you recommend? Looking at trickflow, also have a set of aluminum fuel rails on the list.

Next question, is putting a mechanical fuel pump off the block, bolting a carb intake on the engine and putting a couple holes in the bottom of the main tank for the fuel plumbing simpler? I dont see the point in spending this much money on running 2 new pumps for the 24# injectors unless its needed..but the last thing I want to do is spend good money on the new longblock and not get its full potential.

You could just buy new pumps and intall them on the units already in the tank.

Check out this Ford Performance catalog. Go to page 214 and start reading from there. A lot of great info. And personally, I'd stick with Motorcraft injectors. I know plenty of people running high HP that have bought aftermarket stuff and then went right back to Motorcraft.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/downl...ogdownload.asp

Also, I think it would be worth the time to find a local performance shop that specializes in mustangs, fox body and early 90's era. They could probably spout off all the parts you'll need from memory.

Had a hell of a time trying to find something relative to what you just sent me, thank you a ton :thumbup:

My thought is though, if its longer than the stock tail shaft, then it wouldn't fir properly between the transfer case and transmission. So the transfer case will need moved back, which means I also need a new front driveshaft. It is an interesting unit, and I may run one day. but for now, I think I want other things first.

You also need to know (obviously) what engine and hp rating your running before you can set in atone what type of fuel set ups you can go with. You seem to (in my mind) want to be running a 300 hp engine, which 24 lbs injectors are good for. But around 320-330 hp, you need to jump up to 30 lbs to keep that 80 percent duty cycle. So your close to the line, which changes your fuel set up not knowing how much power your running. because if your running 310 hp, no need to go up to 30 lbs injectors, unless you think you may want to get more out of it down the road. I do also understand your just trying to get an idea on a fuel set up, which may change what size engine you get vs hat size engine you get changing the fuel system set up you get. I do the same thing lol, its good to kick around all ideas. Hope you could follow what I was trying to say, Im in a hurry right now and just typed what I thought of the top of my nmind haha!.

The engine I have in mind is a 390 hp motor (with an edlebrock intake and 650 cfm carb) so obviously if im running the factory efi intake im going to lose a lot of that power right off the start, the issue im trying to solve is doing this alone and rather quickly, so direct fit is key. The 302 (306) I found will fit right in, bolt right to my trans and I can use my top end stuff on it. Im upgrading the fuel system as to not waste all the potential, im going to use summit for the tune chips (direct bolt on to ecm) and then run a better coolant system (3 row with 2 electric fans). Literally only thing im having an issue with is finding a pump to handle the 24# injectors that are motorcraft or ford racing (per recommendation). Or can my factory pumps handle that volume? These are the same pumps that can push the ford 460 in the f250 and f350 so im hoping someone says theyre fine to handle the 24#s

And to all of the detail oriented people noticing my 0419 post time on that, its correct haha. As you can see; im up all night and day thinking of stuff to bug you with!

http://www.fordracingparts.com/m/Part.asp?p=22675

Someone please let me know if these are worth it or if I wont see a difference between some factory 19# motorcraft injectors and those.

I haven't gone through all the pages of your post, so excuse me if I missed something important.
I just thought I'd mention that the pre - 95 I6 trucks used different pumps - they ran at 45 to 60 psi as opposed to the V8's which all ran at 30 to 45.
Late 94, 95 and 96 they dropped the pressure to 30 to 45 for the I6 as well (possibly due to the recall for blown check valves)
Don't know if it makes a hill of beans of difference to what you're trying to do, just thought I'd mention it as they're a direct fit.