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How to get rid of Spark knock on a new motor

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How to get rid of Spark knock on a new motor

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Old 01-05-2018, 01:59 PM
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It almost has to be the control box. Can you set the intial timing with a timing light? If so you should be able to rev the engine up and check to see how much advance you are getting. Without a timing tape you would have to guess though. A timing tape just has more marks on it, say all the way up to 50 degrees of advance, but you might be able to guess without one. Also not sure on your truck if there is some kind of vacuum advance setup. If there is that could be dialing in to much advance.
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by dodgeman1 View Post
It almost has to be the control box. Can you set the intial timing with a timing light? If so you should be able to rev the engine up and check to see how much advance you are getting. Without a timing tape you would have to guess though. A timing tape just has more marks on it, say all the way up to 50 degrees of advance, but you might be able to guess without one. Also not sure on your truck if there is some kind of vacuum advance setup. If there is that could be dialing in to much advance.
it is computer advance and do you have to have the tape my crank is marked every 2 deg I think but now that you guys mentioned too Much advance or retard sometimes it will seem like it is lugging after i shift and when i first crank it and let it warm up then to go to drive it for the first few shifts or so the rpms will shoot up then go back to normal when I put it back on gear could that have anything to do with timing also
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Wyatt Bowen View Post
thanks for the advice if timing doesnt advance or retard what would be the culprit
Offhand, would ensure the SPOUT plug is making good contact. Beyond that is, well, beyond anything I've gotten into.

Don't mean to offend, but difficult to judge a poster's background and knowledge in these forums until they ring up several posts - so, the SPOUT plug is at the end of about a 6-inch two-wire lead coming out of the distributor that ends with an electrical connector laying loose on the intake manifold. The plug is inserted into this connector to complete the circuit, allowing the computer to adjust the timing. When setting the timing, this plug is first removed to force the timing to its base setting, 10BTDC for most 5.0L V8's here, then re-inserted to allow the computer to pick back up. Essentially, if the SPOUT circuit is open for whatever reason - missing plug, bad connection in the plug, damaged wire - the timing will remain static at its base setting.

To the other poster's point - have you pulled the codes to see whether a lean condition may be present? Running lean causes undesirable heating that could lead to pre-ignition / knocking.
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:28 PM
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At least on older vehicles I've worked on the problem is the timing marks only go so far. Depending on the engine the total advance should be somewhere around 32 degrees, but that changes by vehicle. So say you are checking for 30 degrees of total advance and your marks only go up to 15 degrees, you are then guessing what 30 degrees is, which might be good enough for just rough checking. To do this you just rev the engine up and look for the advance. In the old days you disconnected the vacuum advance also, but I don't know if you can do that or not. Usually badly retarded ignition won't cause knock, but it might run bad.

Another thought, is this truck fuel injected? Does it have throttle body fuel injection? If it does you can look in there while the truck is running and rev it up a little bit and watch the spray pattern and make sure its good.
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by wde3477 View Post
Offhand, would ensure the SPOUT plug is making good contact. Beyond that is, well, beyond anything I've gotten into.

Don't mean to offend, but difficult to judge a poster's background and knowledge in these forums until they ring up several posts - so, the SPOUT plug is at the end of about a 6-inch two-wire lead coming out of the distributor that ends with an electrical connector laying loose on the intake manifold. The plug is inserted into this connector to complete the circuit, allowing the computer to adjust the timing. When setting the timing, this plug is first removed to force the timing to its base setting, 10BTDC for most 5.0L V8's here, then re-inserted to allow the computer to pick back up. Essentially, if the SPOUT circuit is open for whatever reason - missing plug, bad connection in the plug, damaged wire - the timing will remain static at its base setting.

To the other poster's point - have you pulled the codes to see whether a lean condition may be present? Running lean causes undesirable heating that could lead to pre-ignition / knocking.
the spout is in there there are no codes and if anything it is running cold hard to do really tell right now because the weather is cold and snowy here this weekend hopefully ill be able to see if it's actually advancing and retarding right could anyone who is familiar with these years tell me if the tfi on the dist controls timing or is it the ecm
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Wyatt Bowen View Post
if the tfi on the dist controls timing or is it the ecm
No firsthand knowledge, but found the following hot mess in another forum. Appears that both the TFI and PCM are involved in the timing...?

"According to my copy of the description of the Ford ignition systems, by the Ford Motor Company Diagnostic Division Mar 13 20002, the Thick Film Ignition-IV Ignition Control Module system operates as follows:

The Profile Ignition Pickup signal is generated in the distributor by a hall effect sensor and a shutter wheel driven by the distributor shaft. It normally generates a square wave, 50% duty cycle signal with the rising edge normally at 10 degrees BTDC for each cylinder. The Power Control Module uses the rising edge to calculate RPM and as a reference for SPark OUTput timing. Some port injected and all sequential injected engines have a “signature PIP” with one vane smaller than the others, the falling edge of which is used to identify # 1 cylinder for fuel injection timing only.

The TFI-IV ICMs come in two flavors; push start and Computer Controlled Dwell. Push start are normally gray in colour, CCD are normally black. With the push start versions; the TFI ICM controls dwell internally. With the CCD versions, dwell is controlled by the PCM. Both versions turn off the coil (fire spark) on a rising edge of SPOUT. For push start versions the SPOUT signal is square wave 50% duty cycle and the falling edge is ignored. For CCD versions SPOUT falling edge controls dwell.

If either version do not receive a SPOUT signal before the following PIP signal it will fire the coil on that PIP signal, normally 10 degrees before TDC.

The Ignition Diagnostic Monitor signal is generated by the fly back voltage of the coil and is used by the PCM to determine if the ignition system is working properly. With push start version this signal goes directly to the PCM and does not go to the TFI ICM. With CCD versions the signal is processed by the TFI ICM and does not go directly to the PCM."
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:35 PM
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After reading the above post, my money is on something wrong with the above described systems. Its sounds complicated, but is really just an early version of computer controlled ignition. It sounds like it might also control the fuel injection signal. Reading the above post, it would almost seem like you would need a shop manual to figure out how to trouble shoot it. Could be as simple as a bad wire.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by wde3477 View Post
No firsthand knowledge, but found the following hot mess in another forum. Appears that both the TFI and PCM are involved in the timing...?

"According to my copy of the description of the Ford ignition systems, by the Ford Motor Company Diagnostic Division Mar 13 20002, the Thick Film Ignition-IV Ignition Control Module system operates as follows:

The Profile Ignition Pickup signal is generated in the distributor by a hall effect sensor and a shutter wheel driven by the distributor shaft. It normally generates a square wave, 50% duty cycle signal with the rising edge normally at 10 degrees BTDC for each cylinder. The Power Control Module uses the rising edge to calculate RPM and as a reference for SPark OUTput timing. Some port injected and all sequential injected engines have a “signature PIP” with one vane smaller than the others, the falling edge of which is used to identify # 1 cylinder for fuel injection timing only.

The TFI-IV ICMs come in two flavors; push start and Computer Controlled Dwell. Push start are normally gray in colour, CCD are normally black. With the push start versions; the TFI ICM controls dwell internally. With the CCD versions, dwell is controlled by the PCM. Both versions turn off the coil (fire spark) on a rising edge of SPOUT. For push start versions the SPOUT signal is square wave 50% duty cycle and the falling edge is ignored. For CCD versions SPOUT falling edge controls dwell.

If either version do not receive a SPOUT signal before the following PIP signal it will fire the coil on that PIP signal, normally 10 degrees before TDC.

The Ignition Diagnostic Monitor signal is generated by the fly back voltage of the coil and is used by the PCM to determine if the ignition system is working properly. With push start version this signal goes directly to the PCM and does not go to the TFI ICM. With CCD versions the signal is processed by the TFI ICM and does not go directly to the PCM."
thank you for the post that is some good info
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Wyatt Bowen View Post
thank you for the post that is some good info
update: I changed out the platinum for a cooler copper as well as I found out fan clutch had went out and was causing it to stay locked up and keeping it really cold ( i dont know if it was a contributing cause or not ) and spark knock seems to be gone thanks for the help everyone
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:46 PM
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Not 100 % sure about a 90 but probably - it should have a knock sensor screwed in the block behind the intake. Early systems would advance the timing till the sensor detected a knock and the back it off slightly.
If the problem comes back you might want to check on that.
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