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As I said, towing knowledge here is VERY VERY limited. All these towing questions should be routed to the rv.net forum where the subject of towing trailers has many more people in the know than here.
Mike, you of all people should know that many on the Forest Rivers Forums and Pop-Up-Times forums are quite uneducated and misunderstanding of towing and especially payload. Most read the manufacturer's claims for max towing on their advertising and "know" that they can tow it even with a full truck bed of firewood and bicycles. I would much rather trust SmokeyWren's decades of experience and others on these forums than the RV forums.
Tongue weight does, as the website you linked to says, mean the force that the trailer brings down on the hitch ball. If there is a 100 pound WDH apparatus, tongue weight plus the hitch weight = hitch weight. The weight of the hitch does not magically disappear and become weightless upon the receiver of the hitch. If you have a 1000 pound weight capacity on the vehicle's hitch receiver, and a 900 pound tongue weight of a trailer, you cannot have more than 100 pounds of weight distributing hitch weight.
In addition, when you are looking at payload, the weight of the driver, passengers, personal items, after-market additions, cargo in the truck bed, the tongue weight and the wdh weight have to be added together to assure they are under the rated payload capacity.
Last edited by Velosprout; 03-18-2017 at 08:53 PM.
Mike, you of all people should know that many on the Forest Rivers Forums and Pop-Up-Times forums are quite uneducated and misunderstanding of towing and especially payload. Most read the manufacturer's claims for max towing on their advertising and "know" that they can tow it even with a full truck bed of firewood and bicycles. I would much rather trust SmokeyWren's decades of experience and others on these forums than the RV forums.
Tongue weight does, as the website you linked to says, mean the force that the trailer brings down on the hitch ball. If there is a 100 pound WDH apparatus, tongue weight plus the hitch weight = hitch weight. The weight of the hitch does not magically disappear and become weightless upon the receiver of the hitch. If you have a 1000 pound weight capacity on the vehicle's hitch receiver, and a 900 pound tongue weight of a trailer, you cannot have more than 100 pounds of weight distributing hitch weight.
In addition, when you are looking at payload, the weight of the driver, passengers, personal items, after-market additions, cargo in the truck bed, the tongue weight and the wdh weight have to be added together to assure they are under the rated payload capacity.
Maybe on those forums but I referenced rv.net forums, not pop up times or forest river forums. Most of the people I have conversed with since 2004 over there, are well versed in the aspects of proper towing and safety.
You can follow who ever you want, but spreading misinformation isn't helpful to anyone.
As far as misunderstanding of the weight ratings. A hitch receiver's rating are designed for a specific type of hitch. With our trucks, they are rated for each, weight bearing and weight distributed. Hence, the ratings of the receiver were calculated when the receiver was engineered using that WDH. Ratings on the receiver are in GTW and TW, not GTW and TW + hitch weight.
As far as misunderstanding of the weight ratings. A hitch receiver's rating are designed for a specific type of hitch. With our trucks, they are rated for each, weight bearing and weight distributed. Hence, the ratings of the receiver were calculated when the receiver was engineered using that WDH. Ratings on the receiver are in GTW and TW, not GTW and TW + hitch weight.
This is not misinformation. As per the Ford F150 Owner's manual, the weight of the WDH is to be used in calculating payload. See the attached snip of the manual.
As for the hitch receiver or coupler, it is rated by SAE J684A requirements to be tested to handle the pressure exerted by 1 1/2 x the trailer GVWR for longitudinal forces and .5 x the trailer GVWR for tranverse and vertical forces; using either the static hitch or WDH. As such, there is substantial safety margin built in, and whether we add the tongue weight to the WDH weight to get what Ford calls "Maximum Tongue Load" or not to determine our maximum hitch weight is incidental, especially as payload limits are far more likely to be hit first.
Last edited by Velosprout; 03-19-2017 at 04:37 AM.
This is not misinformation. As per the Ford F150 Owner's manual, the weight of the WDH is to be used in calculating payload. See the attached snip of the manual.
As for the hitch receiver or coupler, it is rated by SAE J684A requirements to be tested to handle the pressure exerted by 1 1/2 x the trailer GVWR for longitudinal forces and .5 x the trailer GVWR for tranverse and vertical forces; using either the static hitch or WDH. As such, there is substantial safety margin built in, and whether we add the tongue weight to the WDH weight to get what Ford calls "Maximum Tongue Load" or not to determine our maximum hitch weight is incidental, especially as payload limits are far more likely to be hit first.
Gross Trailer Weight rating (Weight of the trailer, seen as "GTW") is not the same as Tongue Weight rating (Weight of the tongue, seen as "TW"). You're confusing Tongue Weight ("TW") with Gross Trailer Weight ("GTW"). Both are used in rating a receiver, SAMPLE: GTW= 10,000 lbs/ TW= 1,000 lbs.
Propride states GTW = Gross Trailer Weight Rating (GTWR) – The maximum allowable load of a trailer that is loaded. It includes the weight of the trailer itself plus the fluids and cargo. Note: this is sometimes designated as the GVWR of the trailer.
Propride states TW = Tongue Weight (TW) – The static downward force exerted on the hitch ball by the trailer coupler.
Gross Trailer Weight rating (Weight of the trailer, seen as "GTW") is not the same as Tongue Weight rating (Weight of the tongue, seen as "TW"). You're confusing Tongue Weight ("TW") with Gross Trailer Weight ("GTW"). Both are used in rating a receiver, SAMPLE: GTW= 10,000 lbs/ TW= 1,000 lbs.
Propride states GTW = Gross Trailer Weight Rating (GTWR) – The maximum allowable load of a trailer that is loaded. It includes the weight of the trailer itself plus the fluids and cargo. Note: this is sometimes designated as the GVWR of the trailer.
Propride states TW = Tongue Weight (TW) – The static downward force exerted on the hitch ball by the trailer coupler.
I am not confusing GTWR. Read the SAE specs (google it) and you will find that the SAE testing to determine the rating of the receiver hitch is based upon a multiple of the gross trailer weight rating to determine the weight limit. SAE does NOT use TW to determine the rating of a receiver. The final rating is expressed to the consumer as TW, but it is not what is used for determining the rating. That makes sense, because in an emergency situation or regular use the entire force of the trailer is pulling on, pushing on, or placing force onto the receiver in an upwards, backwards, forwards, or sideways motion. The actual force could be the total weight of the trailer plus some due to the compounding of leverage.
When the trailer is being pulled up a hill or pulled out of a muddy field, the forces applied to the receiver hitch are far more than the tongue weight while stationary in a driveway. The hitch receiver must bear a lot more forces than just the weight of the trailer as the pulling motion applies to the trailer. If a trailer receiver was just made to the ability to carry only to the downward force of TW, it would be ripped from the truck by the weight of a heavy trailer when accelerating or pulling it forward in mud or uphill.
Last edited by Velosprout; 03-19-2017 at 02:40 PM.
I am not confusing GTWR. Read the SAE specs (google it) and you will find that the SAE testing to determine the rating of the receiver hitch is based upon a multiple of the gross trailer weight rating to determine the weight limit. SAE does NOT use TW to determine the rating of a receiver. The final rating is expressed to the consumer as TW, but it is not what is used for determining the rating. That makes sense, because in an emergency situation or regular use the entire force of the trailer is pulling on, pushing on, or placing force onto the receiver in an upwards, backwards, forwards, or sideways motion. The actual force could be the total weight of the trailer plus some due to the compounding of leverage.
When the trailer is being pulled up a hill, pulled out of a muddy field, the forces applied to the receiver hitch are far more than the tongue weight while stationary in a driveway.
I feel you're still really confused. Why don't we just agree to disagree. I can't explain it any clearer.
BTW, SAE doesn't have anything to do with your receiver ratings, the manufacturer determines the ratings based on their engineering and design. SAE is used for a vehicles tow rating, not receiver ratings.
I feel you're still really confused. Why don't we just agree to disagree. I can't explain it any clearer.
BTW, SAE doesn't have anything to do with your receiver ratings, the manufacturer determines the ratings based on their engineering and design. SAE is used for a vehicles tow rating, not receiver ratings.
This is not misinformation. As per the Ford F150 Owner's manual, the weight of the WDH is to be used in calculating payload. See the attached snip of the manual.
As for the hitch receiver or coupler, it is rated by SAE J684A requirements to be tested to handle the pressure exerted by 1 1/2 x the trailer GVWR for longitudinal forces and .5 x the trailer GVWR for tranverse and vertical forces; using either the static hitch or WDH. As such, there is substantial safety margin built in, and whether we add the tongue weight to the WDH weight to get what Ford calls "Maximum Tongue Load" or not to determine our maximum hitch weight is incidental, especially as payload limits are far more likely to be hit first.
Tongue weight and payload are two separate calculations. The chapter you referenced has nothing to do with tongue weight, but payload.
I'm done, that still has nothing to do with Tongue Weight rating (TW). Like I said, I can't make it any clearer.
Also SAE offers an optional standard, no vehicle maker or hitch maker needs to follow their standard. They are an optional standard. Several vehicle makers didn't follow the SAE Tow Rating standard, those makers made their own standard.
I'm done, that still has nothing to do with Tongue Weight rating (TW). Like I said, I can't make it any clearer.
Also SAE offers an optional standard, no vehicle maker or hitch maker needs to follow their standard. They are an optional standard. Several vehicle makers didn't follow the SAE Tow Rating standard, those makers made their own standard.
This is a Ford F150 Forum, and Ford does use the SAE standards.
03-18-2017, 08:34 PM
