altarocks

I've got a frustrating issue with braking intensity I'm hoping some of you can help me resolve. Bottom line is I don't think I'm getting sufficient braking intensity - truck seems to be doing most of the braking. Sorry this is kind of long, but the background is necessary.

I have a 2012 Keystone Summerland TT. Bought it used in 2013. Fully loaded ~ 7,000 lb. I've had the TT in to the RV dealer to check the brakes 3x - spent about $400 total and each time the dealer says brakes are working properly. I have the integrated brake controller & I've had the truck to the Ford dealer 2x and they say the brake controller is working properly.

I spent about an hour yesterday testing the braking time from 20 mph at different brake settings on the truck manually squeezing the brake controller and recording stopping times. See attached. There seems to be very little difference in stopping times between low, medium and high brake intensity. The times lead me to believe the brake controller may not be working properly.

Little backgroud: When I bought the TT in 2013 I had a Jeep Commander. The RV dealer rigged an aftermarket brake controller. Manually squeezing the controller at max gain could lock up the trailer brakes - I backed the gain down slightly and was happy with the braking balance between truck and trailer. I left the gain alone over the next couple seasons.

When I bought the F150 one year ago I noticed when adjusting hitch, etc. for towing that the trailer wasn't braking with the intensity it initially did on the Jeep. The RV dealer said that the trailer brakes were working and that it must be a brake controller problem. I went back to the Ford dealer - they still had my trade-in on the lot and let me hook up my TT to it. I found that the braking intensity was identical on the Jeep as on my F150 - changing the gain didn't get the same intensity I got in 2013 (not even close).

Clearly something changed between 2013 and 2016. I used to be able to skid the TT tires but now can't even get close. Since the difference is evident on both the Jeep and F-150 that to me points to the TT as the problem.

Is there a way to test the brake controller voltage to know how it's working at different settings? I asked the Ford dealer to do this - they simply responded by saying voltage is being delivered. I assume the voltage should increase with gain and intensity settings. If possible I'd like to be able to test and record voltages delivered at various settings - that may remove the brake controller as a variable.

I apologize for this being so long. Ford is looking only at the truck and the RV dealer is looking only at the TT - no one is looking at it as one combined system. On wet roads the truck tires will momentarily lock while the ABS kicks in. I expect a lot more contribution from the TT but don't know how to get it. I need a way to know the brake controller is functioning properly or that the TT brakes are working properly. Both Ford and the RV dealer point the finger at the other guy and I'm stuck in the middle.

I have a 3-week trip planned to the Rockies in August and I'm wary of making it the way my braking is currently working.

Steve Osborne

Whats the setting on tbc???...mine is set 7-8 depending on which trailer im using.....as well....the tbc seems to work with the 16s truck brakes...meaning the harder/longer i hold the brake pedal the more the trailer brakes come on---harder...so if your just gentle with the brakes you may never feel them on the trailer.....i always feel them on my last stretch of hwy before my home turn......down hill turn lane...apply brakes and the distance and pedal pressure....you feel the trailer brakes come on. And slow everything down...

altarocks

I've tried every gain setting and every intensity setting. I've had the truck for a full year -
during that time I've tried every adjustment I can think of. I can't feel any increase corresponding to pedal force/time. I know it takes much longer to stop now than with the Jeep. Of course it should take a bit longer since the truck is heavier than the Jeep, but I'm sure my trailer brake effort has significantly decreased.

Changing braking intensity doesn't seem to have any noticeable effect. Increasing gain seems to help, but not enough. When it was initially rigged on my Jeep maxing the gain allowed the trailer alone to throw me forward in the seat - it would engage the seat belt. Now I think I could keep a glass of water on the dash without it spilling even at a gain of 10.0.

I believe the goal should be achieving similar braking effect for both truck and trailer - as it now operates the truck seems to be doing the majority of the braking. I just don't know how I can verify that with objective data.

BarmanBean

iTrader: (1)

I had a Tekonsha P3 for our van. I think the setup instructions were to drive about 20mph and engage the brake manually and set it so that the trailer wouldn't lock up the tires, but would bring the vehicle to a stop.

Try that. If the tires are locking up, dial it back. Once you get it to "braking but not locking up" that should be about all the braking input you want to have on the trailer.


Also, you are saying that the problem seems to follow the trailer. That being the case, not sure why you are trying to chase down an issue with the TBC...?

RACarvalho

I know you have spent some $ on this already but sometimes dealers say they are ok but they just followed a procedure that don't cover everything:
On the trailer:
Are the brake shoes good?
Are the brake actuators working?
What voltage the actuators are seeing?

On the truck:
Is there a difference between the voltage indicated in the dash and the voltage at the 7 pin connector?
Is there a difference between the 7 pin connectors of the truck and the previous vehicle? are the inside contacts different?

altarocks

With my long-winded post you must have missed seeing that I can't get anywhere close to lockup at 20 MPH at any effort or gain setting. Driving at 20 MPH and manually squeezing the TBC (no pedal) is how I've been testing all the settings - I spent about an hour recording stopping time at low, medium and high braking effort and gain settings of 0, 5 and 10 for each effort level. Manually squeezing the controller @ 20 MPH is also the same method I used when I set up the Jeep braking in 2013, back when the brakes delivered enough to lock the trailer wheels. The only difference is the aftermarket TBC on the Jeep only had adjustment for gain, not effort.

I'm convinced the problem is the trailer brakes, but I don't have enough knowledge of how the system works to convince the RV dealer. I'm calling Keystone tomorrow - since the dealer is a Keystone authorized service center Keystone ought to have some input.

With two different systems at work I feel like the easiest way to pinpoint the problem is to rule out one of the systems by showing it's working or not. Without being able to do that I'm stuck in the middle of two shops pointing the finger at the other guy. Of the two systems it seems like getting data for the TBC should be the most straightforward - it's simply electrical current. I'm assuming it should be relatively easy to test the voltage output of the TBC and record the output. I just don't know how to get that data since a load must be connected before voltage is delivered. Ford used a simple test plug - that only proves that voltage is being delivered but it doesn't show how much.

I'm to the point that I despise RV dealers. Most shops that don't specialize in RVs don't want to touch them, so there are few options for service. If I don't get anywhere when I contact Keystone I will call a couple trailer garages to see if they can help.

altarocks

Dealer says the shoes are at 70%. This is the 3rd time they inspected the brakes and the 2nd time they have removed, inspected and reinstalled the components. I haven't removed the drums myself to test the actuators - I'm relying on the dealer to know the brakes on a trailer they are an authorized service center for. I've now gone from the service manager to the general manager - I'm not exactly brimming with confidence that they are fully competent, but as I mentioned in the post above there aren't a lot of options for servicing RVs.

I would love to know how to test the voltage of the TBC - that's the main info I am hoping to get from this thread. I can't simply test the pin at the connector - it has to be connected to a load to deliver voltage. Ford used a test plug, but that only lights up to show voltage is delivered, not how much. Since I always have some braking voltage is being delivered but the voltage level seems to me to be the critical info I'm missing.

I'm willing to connect the trailer and pierce the insulation with a multi meter to get readings if that's what it takes, but I don't know what the voltages should be or how those readings correlate to voltages delivered when the pedal is used instead of squeezing the controller. As Steve mentioned earlier braking intensity increases with pedal force - does that mean the full voltage determined by the gain setting will only be achieved when "standing on" the pedal? I also don't quite understand how the TBC braking effort setting and gain setting work together in terms of voltage delivered. Should more voltage be delivered at a medium effort with a gain of 9 than at a high effort with a gain of say 7?

Thanks to all who are still reading - this is really frustrating. It's not exactly space-age technology at work, but without a complete understanding of how the TBC works I'm struggling to know who to go to next - my money tree is hitting a drought

RACarvalho

About dealers:
I once took my BMW to the dealer for wheel alignment and they offered me their " XX points inspection" for $XXX and I accepted...
Since I knew the key switch (the electric connector switch that turns on the power to every single (in my case 22) module in the car) was bust, I told them that and the rep. wrote in the work order that that part was busted " according to the customer".... when the inspection report came back, it had 14 pages of garbage about the need of replacing modules (extremely expensive) and testing, etc. Every single fault they found was caused by that part that I told them was bust but they didn't listen to me and want me to pay for countless hours of throubleshooting and vain labor.... I changed that part($50) at home in 45 minutes and solved the problem....
That's is why I mentioned they follow procedures and may not find the problem BECAUSE they don't think, just follow procedures they may not even understand.
I don't have that brake controller, I have a Tekonsha RF which shows me realtime what is the voltage applied to the brakes and it works even when you apply the brakes manually so seeing what mine does, it's my understanding that if you set the gain and the force at the controller to the maximum, when you apply the trailer brakes manually - all the way, the trailer should see the maximum voltage.
So I would look for the brake controller manual/specs and find out what is the maximum voltage it can deliver, then find some jump cables, put them on the connector at the rear bumper and measure what it's delivering. It should show a progression from zero to the max volt stated in the controller specs as you have someone manually applying the brakes. If all the readings at the bumper are ok, I would connect the trailer and use the jump cables at the actuators and check what the actuators are getting. If voltage is ok there, the drum brake shoes are good, the gap between the shoe and the drum is ok (the drum is not so large (wear) that the actuators would reach max traveling w/o putting much pressure in it), the problem will be the actuators.
The tech guy may have read the voltage at the trailer and assumed the breaks are good because the shoes are good and the actuators are seeing the right voltage and even maybe moving but if the drum is too large (wear) or the actuator is busted, that check will not catch it.
Now, if all the above is right (if it works when the trailer is hitched to other tow vehicles) you still can test the voltage at the bumper as someone press the brake pedal at the truck....
As my experience with BMW stealers above, not always the dealers know exactly what their are doing or have the best troubleshooting methods, unfortunately.

altarocks

Thanks RACarvalho. I think you're right that the only way I'm gonna get the answers I'm looking for is to do it myself (either that or keep forking over $ to different shops until I land on one that helps). I've never removed my drums - that's probably the best thing I can do at this point. I spent a year as a VW mechanic 30 yrs ago (how can I be that old? ) and used to do quite a few basic brake jobs so I'm not entirely out of my element.

Ford's integrated brake controller is confusing me. The gain settings show up as a range from 0-10. I don't know if that equates exactly to volts. In addition to gain settings the setting for trailer braking effort throws a variable into the mix. I'm not sure what that does - it can be set at low, medium or high effort. If I can learn how the effort settings combine with the gain setting and what the voltage should be at the actuators a lot of the mystery will be removed. Time for me to hit Google on this one - there has to be technical info on the TBC out there somewhere.

Steve Osborne

i'll try again...the ford tbc works with the truck----sway control/abs/stability....so as I have felt with mine....the harder/longer you use the brakes the more you feel the trailer slow as well.....I have yet to get the trailer to lock up with the 16....


I'm wondering if your comparing to much of the old and expecting to much from the new...