Help configuring a SuperCrew with 2030 payload?
03-07-2019, 03:23 PM
#51
But read and understand the fine print. 20" wheels will result in the highest tow rating, but not necessarily the heaviest trailer you can tow without being overloaded. Payload capacity (GVWR minus weight of the truck) is usually the limiter as to max trailer weight. Not tow rating (GCWR minus the weight of the truck). You should probably ignore tow rating and maximize payload capacity if you want to tow the heaviest possible trailer without being overloaded.
03-07-2019, 04:22 PM
#52
I'm not seeing it. I've been through the detailed spec sheet a million times. The fine print really gives your eyeballs a workout. Under the 'packages' section, unlike HDPP (18" upgrade), max tow says nothing about wheel size.
However, if you reverse the process and come at it from the page covering wheel options, 20" only mentions STX & Chrome packages. Likewise, 18" OWL x-references back to the HDPP package.
Now, I may have an older spec sheet from a few months ago, so maybe it's been updated. If so, can you post a link to the new version? I'd like to see the 20" max tow claim verified. As it stands, on my sheet max tow simply lists upgraded front stabilizer and upgraded rear bumper. (HDPP also has upgraded springs.)
What Smokey said is correct, the limiting factor these days is payload, not trailer capacity. We're all forgetting that just 10-15 years ago, cars & trucks didn't have 400 hp/tq engines. So, engines were more closely aligned with chassis capability, resulting in payload being more aligned relative to pull weight. (That is,used to be 2k payload/7k tow vs now it's 2k payload/14k tow.)
But while engine power/output/efficiency/smog have all dramatically improved with micro-controllers, improved fuel systems and greater engineering precision/balance, suspension is still Newton physics 101. That is, 2,000 lbs is still a ton, earth's gravity hasn't changed, and a falling body still accelerates (and hits) the same as it did 100 years ago.
The result are engines that could have powered a big(ish) rig in previous decades, but are still in 1/2 ton bodies. So, they can pull, but they can't hold (the weight) any greater than they ever did. (Actually, somewhat less due to all the car-like features that have been larded on.)
However, if you reverse the process and come at it from the page covering wheel options, 20" only mentions STX & Chrome packages. Likewise, 18" OWL x-references back to the HDPP package.
Now, I may have an older spec sheet from a few months ago, so maybe it's been updated. If so, can you post a link to the new version? I'd like to see the 20" max tow claim verified. As it stands, on my sheet max tow simply lists upgraded front stabilizer and upgraded rear bumper. (HDPP also has upgraded springs.)
What Smokey said is correct, the limiting factor these days is payload, not trailer capacity. We're all forgetting that just 10-15 years ago, cars & trucks didn't have 400 hp/tq engines. So, engines were more closely aligned with chassis capability, resulting in payload being more aligned relative to pull weight. (That is,used to be 2k payload/7k tow vs now it's 2k payload/14k tow.)
But while engine power/output/efficiency/smog have all dramatically improved with micro-controllers, improved fuel systems and greater engineering precision/balance, suspension is still Newton physics 101. That is, 2,000 lbs is still a ton, earth's gravity hasn't changed, and a falling body still accelerates (and hits) the same as it did 100 years ago.
The result are engines that could have powered a big(ish) rig in previous decades, but are still in 1/2 ton bodies. So, they can pull, but they can't hold (the weight) any greater than they ever did. (Actually, somewhat less due to all the car-like features that have been larded on.)
Last edited by snerf; 03-07-2019 at 04:28 PM.
03-07-2019, 05:24 PM
#53
I'm not seeing it. I've been through the detailed spec sheet a million times. The fine print really gives your eyeballs a workout. Under the 'packages' section, unlike HDPP (18" upgrade), max tow says nothing about wheel size.
However, if you reverse the process and come at it from the page covering wheel options, 20" only mentions STX & Chrome packages. Likewise, 18" OWL x-references back to the HDPP package.
Now, I may have an older spec sheet from a few months ago, so maybe it's been updated. If so, can you post a link to the new version? I'd like to see the 20" max tow claim verified. As it stands, on my sheet max tow simply lists upgraded front stabilizer and upgraded rear bumper. (HDPP also has upgraded springs.)
What Smokey said is correct, the limiting factor these days is payload, not trailer capacity. We're all forgetting that just 10-15 years ago, cars & trucks didn't have 400 hp/tq engines. So, engines were more closely aligned with chassis capability, resulting in payload being more aligned relative to pull weight. (That is,used to be 2k payload/7k tow vs now it's 2k payload/14k tow.)
But while engine power/output/efficiency/smog have all dramatically improved with micro-controllers, improved fuel systems and greater engineering precision/balance, suspension is still Newton physics 101. That is, 2,000 lbs is still a ton, earth's gravity hasn't changed, and a falling body still accelerates (and hits) the same as it did 100 years ago.
The result are engines that could have powered a big(ish) rig in previous decades, but are still in 1/2 ton bodies. So, they can pull, but they can't hold (the weight) any greater than they ever did. (Actually, somewhat less due to all the car-like features that have been larded on.)
However, if you reverse the process and come at it from the page covering wheel options, 20" only mentions STX & Chrome packages. Likewise, 18" OWL x-references back to the HDPP package.
Now, I may have an older spec sheet from a few months ago, so maybe it's been updated. If so, can you post a link to the new version? I'd like to see the 20" max tow claim verified. As it stands, on my sheet max tow simply lists upgraded front stabilizer and upgraded rear bumper. (HDPP also has upgraded springs.)
What Smokey said is correct, the limiting factor these days is payload, not trailer capacity. We're all forgetting that just 10-15 years ago, cars & trucks didn't have 400 hp/tq engines. So, engines were more closely aligned with chassis capability, resulting in payload being more aligned relative to pull weight. (That is,used to be 2k payload/7k tow vs now it's 2k payload/14k tow.)
But while engine power/output/efficiency/smog have all dramatically improved with micro-controllers, improved fuel systems and greater engineering precision/balance, suspension is still Newton physics 101. That is, 2,000 lbs is still a ton, earth's gravity hasn't changed, and a falling body still accelerates (and hits) the same as it did 100 years ago.
The result are engines that could have powered a big(ish) rig in previous decades, but are still in 1/2 ton bodies. So, they can pull, but they can't hold (the weight) any greater than they ever did. (Actually, somewhat less due to all the car-like features that have been larded on.)
I dug into it as part of my truck search. For the 18 and up models with Max Tow, you need 20" wheels from the factory to get the full GCWR and suspension updates.
You need to read the fine print, but it all aligns to say that the 20" wheel configuration is required to get the springs, steering gear, and stabalizer bar that is part of the max tow package.
03-07-2019, 05:54 PM
#54
Got it. OK, there's where this sort of gets complicated, in the sense that you have to understand Clintonian parsing along he lines of "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
This section in the Max Tow pop up information box from the on-line builder says:
---
Requires 3.5L EcoBoost® engine.
Does not include Trailer Tow Mirrors. Trailer Tow Mirrors are a standalone option and must be ordered separately.
Max GCWR/Max Tow achieved on SuperCrew® when equipped with 20-inch Wheels.
This configuration will also come equipped with max springs, steering gear, and upgraded stabilizer bar.
---
I read each sentence as stand alone information disclosures. That is, the last (4th) sentence is not dependent on the 3rd.
Secondly, the 20" wheels sentence (3rd) references towing capacity, not payload capacity (GCWR is different than GVWR.)
Lastly, the section you included from the spec sheet covering 'conventional towing' is identical to mine ie it's ordered by engine & axle ratio. With one exception: yours has a footnote 11 to the 12,700 lbs towing limit for the Screw 4.5 145" 3.55, while mine has the same exact spec but without the footnote.
Finally, if you pop over to the 'payload', it says nothing about wheels, as it is only ordered by GVWR.
---
Honestly, I'm glad you brought this up, because this type of confusion requires careful analysis. For all we know, Ford neglected to note that the max conventional towing numbers do require 20" wheels on prior spec sheets. OTOH, it's a bit of a moot point, since payload is the determining factor these days, not tow rating.
Can't wait to see the input from the brain trust.
This section in the Max Tow pop up information box from the on-line builder says:
---
Requires 3.5L EcoBoost® engine.
Does not include Trailer Tow Mirrors. Trailer Tow Mirrors are a standalone option and must be ordered separately.
Max GCWR/Max Tow achieved on SuperCrew® when equipped with 20-inch Wheels.
This configuration will also come equipped with max springs, steering gear, and upgraded stabilizer bar.
---
I read each sentence as stand alone information disclosures. That is, the last (4th) sentence is not dependent on the 3rd.
Secondly, the 20" wheels sentence (3rd) references towing capacity, not payload capacity (GCWR is different than GVWR.)
Lastly, the section you included from the spec sheet covering 'conventional towing' is identical to mine ie it's ordered by engine & axle ratio. With one exception: yours has a footnote 11 to the 12,700 lbs towing limit for the Screw 4.5 145" 3.55, while mine has the same exact spec but without the footnote.
Finally, if you pop over to the 'payload', it says nothing about wheels, as it is only ordered by GVWR.
---
Honestly, I'm glad you brought this up, because this type of confusion requires careful analysis. For all we know, Ford neglected to note that the max conventional towing numbers do require 20" wheels on prior spec sheets. OTOH, it's a bit of a moot point, since payload is the determining factor these days, not tow rating.
Can't wait to see the input from the brain trust.
03-07-2019, 05:57 PM
#55
Don’t get hung up on max tow. It’s window dressing..
If you want the best towing package, it will have HDPP. Period.
You add up all the weights of the passengers, dogs, groceries, generators, hitch, fuel, etc, and suptract that from your payload spec. Divide the result by .13, and that is a realistic number of the heaviest trailer your gonna tow. Without HDPP, it will not be a huge number, and that’s fine as long as it is respected. 1000 lbs would be about 7600 lb trailer or so. Since most folks don’t have an hdpp, the number left over is likely 600 to 800 lbs - about a 4000 to 6000 lb trailer. Max tow starts to look like a silly number at that point, you’ll never come close to it.
If you want the best towing package, it will have HDPP. Period.
You add up all the weights of the passengers, dogs, groceries, generators, hitch, fuel, etc, and suptract that from your payload spec. Divide the result by .13, and that is a realistic number of the heaviest trailer your gonna tow. Without HDPP, it will not be a huge number, and that’s fine as long as it is respected. 1000 lbs would be about 7600 lb trailer or so. Since most folks don’t have an hdpp, the number left over is likely 600 to 800 lbs - about a 4000 to 6000 lb trailer. Max tow starts to look like a silly number at that point, you’ll never come close to it.
03-07-2019, 06:18 PM
#56
Last, but not least, the highest payload rating possible under any scenario regardless of trim, wheels, etc is with LT (light truck) rated tires. LT rated tires (and higher) have much higher sidewall rigidity to prevent the tire from flexing, heating up and coming apart while under load. It's also why LT tires have a stiffer, harsher ride; alas, no free lunch.
As an aside, if you browse any of the trailer or RV sites, a lot of people talk about putting LT tires on their trailers. The upside is less chance of blowout, the downside is the ride is harsher, and **** inside your trailer can get bounced around.
Take a look at the wheels/tires page of the spec sheet, and scan for the LT tire prefix. You will note they are only available on 17" & 18" wheels. Example:
LT275/65R18C OWL All Terrain (Heavy Duty Payload Package)
As F175, Smokey and others have said, the name of the game is payload, not tow. As the ancient builders understood, it's far easier to push/pull something with a wheel vs actually picking the object up.
As an aside, if you browse any of the trailer or RV sites, a lot of people talk about putting LT tires on their trailers. The upside is less chance of blowout, the downside is the ride is harsher, and **** inside your trailer can get bounced around.
Take a look at the wheels/tires page of the spec sheet, and scan for the LT tire prefix. You will note they are only available on 17" & 18" wheels. Example:
LT275/65R18C OWL All Terrain (Heavy Duty Payload Package)
As F175, Smokey and others have said, the name of the game is payload, not tow. As the ancient builders understood, it's far easier to push/pull something with a wheel vs actually picking the object up.
Last edited by snerf; 03-07-2019 at 06:23 PM.
03-07-2019, 07:28 PM
#57
Also a weird setup for those looking to configure an XL truck with HDPP.
If you get an XL with HDPP, you can't have Sync 3. You also can't have STX, which would normally include Sync 3, but you can still add the chrome package to make it look like it's not a work truck. However, if you try to add Sync 3 as a stand-alone option, you loose the HDPP.
If you jump up to an XLT, you can have Sync 3 no problem with HDPP. The truck costs more, and is probably heavier because its and includes more options as standard, but the Sync 3 is not off limits for an XLT with HDPP.
If you go to the build and price tool, you can see for yourself.
If you get an XL with HDPP, you can't have Sync 3. You also can't have STX, which would normally include Sync 3, but you can still add the chrome package to make it look like it's not a work truck. However, if you try to add Sync 3 as a stand-alone option, you loose the HDPP.
If you jump up to an XLT, you can have Sync 3 no problem with HDPP. The truck costs more, and is probably heavier because its and includes more options as standard, but the Sync 3 is not off limits for an XLT with HDPP.
If you go to the build and price tool, you can see for yourself.
03-07-2019, 07:38 PM
#58
Got it. OK, there's where this sort of gets complicated, in the sense that you have to understand Clintonian parsing along he lines of "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
This section in the Max Tow pop up information box from the on-line builder says:
---
Requires 3.5L EcoBoost® engine.
Does not include Trailer Tow Mirrors. Trailer Tow Mirrors are a standalone option and must be ordered separately.
Max GCWR/Max Tow achieved on SuperCrew® when equipped with 20-inch Wheels.
This configuration will also come equipped with max springs, steering gear, and upgraded stabilizer bar.
---
I read each sentence as stand alone information disclosures. That is, the last (4th) sentence is not dependent on the 3rd.
Secondly, the 20" wheels sentence (3rd) references towing capacity, not payload capacity (GCWR is different than GVWR.)
Lastly, the section you included from the spec sheet covering 'conventional towing' is identical to mine ie it's ordered by engine & axle ratio. With one exception: yours has a footnote 11 to the 12,700 lbs towing limit for the Screw 4.5 145" 3.55, while mine has the same exact spec but without the footnote.
Finally, if you pop over to the 'payload', it says nothing about wheels, as it is only ordered by GVWR.
---
Honestly, I'm glad you brought this up, because this type of confusion requires careful analysis. For all we know, Ford neglected to note that the max conventional towing numbers do require 20" wheels on prior spec sheets. OTOH, it's a bit of a moot point, since payload is the determining factor these days, not tow rating.
Can't wait to see the input from the brain trust.
This section in the Max Tow pop up information box from the on-line builder says:
---
Requires 3.5L EcoBoost® engine.
Does not include Trailer Tow Mirrors. Trailer Tow Mirrors are a standalone option and must be ordered separately.
Max GCWR/Max Tow achieved on SuperCrew® when equipped with 20-inch Wheels.
This configuration will also come equipped with max springs, steering gear, and upgraded stabilizer bar.
---
I read each sentence as stand alone information disclosures. That is, the last (4th) sentence is not dependent on the 3rd.
Secondly, the 20" wheels sentence (3rd) references towing capacity, not payload capacity (GCWR is different than GVWR.)
Lastly, the section you included from the spec sheet covering 'conventional towing' is identical to mine ie it's ordered by engine & axle ratio. With one exception: yours has a footnote 11 to the 12,700 lbs towing limit for the Screw 4.5 145" 3.55, while mine has the same exact spec but without the footnote.
Finally, if you pop over to the 'payload', it says nothing about wheels, as it is only ordered by GVWR.
---
Honestly, I'm glad you brought this up, because this type of confusion requires careful analysis. For all we know, Ford neglected to note that the max conventional towing numbers do require 20" wheels on prior spec sheets. OTOH, it's a bit of a moot point, since payload is the determining factor these days, not tow rating.
Can't wait to see the input from the brain trust.
Regarding the equipment with or without the 20" wheels, there was another user on another forum that stated that you don't get the springs, swaybar, etc if you don't include the 20" wheels. I had asked if you could just swap to 20" wheels down the road, and that was the response I got. Take it for what it's worth.
03-07-2019, 08:01 PM
#59
I couldn't get the STX, Chrome or Sport options for an XL with the HDPP package. Are you sure you were able to get Chrome under the XL config? Mine had a pop-up window saying I had to remove HDPP. So, if you really want it, the alternative is to move up to XLT.
However, there are a couple of issues:
1. The image trend in LA is going towards blacked out grill & rims - for both cars & trucks. Not sure if this trend has caught on elsewhere. So, in that sense, getting an XLT chrome package would actually be going against what appears to be a growing trend here in SoCal.
2. In the Jeep world (I've mentioned I have a new JLU Wrangler Rubicon - I'm looking for a tow vehicle for an Airstream trailer), the tongue-in-cheek self-deprecating after-market look is called "butch". Yep, exactly as it sounds. And, believe it or not, the "butch" look is fairly popular with LEO. We live by a state park, and the (armed) rangers drive blacked out rims/grill, white Silverados - they look pretty aggressive.
3. HDPP comes with OWL tires (outline white lettering), so it looks pretty good highlighted against the black bumpers/grill.
4. HDPP comes with premium 18" brushed alum wheels - again, it looks pretty good against the black bumpers/grill.
5. Finally, you can add fog lamps for $140 - it looks really good on the configurator as it breaks up the monolithic black front.
It looks like we're both searching for the same vehicle, so I'm happy to exchange ideas and opinions.
As for examples of the blacked out look, here are a couple, but you have to use your imagination. The first one is a ranger truck, but with chrome rims; all the ones around my area have blacked out rims along with the front bumper. The second image is of a non HDPP, max tow XL Scab. It has 17" steel rims and aftermarket (snow) tires, but IMO the OWL look looks good with the black bumper.
Last edited by snerf; 03-07-2019 at 08:03 PM.
03-07-2019, 10:14 PM
#60
It's like trying to follow breadcrumbs to understand the ratings on the trucks. I agree that the HDPP will get you the most payload, and the most real world tow capacity. No questions asked there. You can do the math quickly and understand that. The way I approached it in my mind is that I would like to know the rating for the truck so I can stay legal when towing. It would be easy to accidentally configure a truck that only give you 7000lbs rating (say you have a 2.7 or 5.0 with only a hitch or the standard tow package) when you think you are going to have 12700, 13000, or something along those lines. It could be easy to stay within the payload rating, but exceed 5000lbs or 7000lbs tow rating. Should you get in an accident and you are outside of the rated limits of your truck, you could be in for some big trouble.
Regarding the equipment with or without the 20" wheels, there was another user on another forum that stated that you don't get the springs, swaybar, etc if you don't include the 20" wheels. I had asked if you could just swap to 20" wheels down the road, and that was the response I got. Take it for what it's worth.
Regarding the equipment with or without the 20" wheels, there was another user on another forum that stated that you don't get the springs, swaybar, etc if you don't include the 20" wheels. I had asked if you could just swap to 20" wheels down the road, and that was the response I got. Take it for what it's worth.
It’s the payload that will get busted way before the tow rating. Unless you are towing hay wagons.