johndeerefarmer

I have had three 3.5 ecoboosts and three SD's with Powerstroke diesels. The ecoboost will "haul the mail" and does a good job towing as well. My problem with them has been the CAC. Ford chose to make it smaller to help with the condensation issue. This increased IAT2 temps which causes timing to retard and less power. Two of my ecoboosts had Wagner CAC's installed to fix this problem. Other than this, the carbon build up issue and the fact that towing fuel economy really stinks. 7.5 mpg pulling a small fiver doesn't make me happy. Towing a Polaris RZR on a 12' trailer got me 9 mpg
My 6.7 PSD will get about 25% better fuel economy but was expensive to buy, expensive to maintain and repair (if they ever need it), rides rough and can't accelerate very fast.

If Ford comes in with the 3.0 as competition to the ecodiesel- meaning shooting for high fuel economy but no payload or towing capacity I would not even consider one. If they choose to make it competition for the Titan/Cummins combo and put it at around 300/500 I would more than likely buy one in a heartbeat.
Having said that, when Ford adds direct injection to the 5.0 for next year's F150 if they put it as the top dog in hp/torque I would also consider it.

It's really hard to do a calculation as to whether a diesel is worth it or not. For example at the moment diesel is 20 cents cheaper than 87 pump gas but that's not usually how it is. For some guys paying a higher price up front is better than paying more at the pump.

As far as reliability of diesels goes, I have had diesels here on the farm since '87. I have never had any failure related to the engine/emissions systems on any of them.

acadianbob

I pull a small 5er with my Ecoboost; 7500 loaded, 30 feet. We did a 5,000 mile trip last spring and I got 11.5 mpg for the whole trip. 10.5 mpg average while towing. I tow at 60 mph. Power is never an issue. We pulled Vail Pass and Eisenhower Tunnel with ease.

Mikemeek

All the bickering on this forum is one of the reasons I haven't been in here in a while. I don't mind a debate but the personal attacks are uncalled for.
I say bring on the diesels so the EB lovers can tell the oil burners how much better their EB is and leave us 5.0 lovers alone. LOL
I personally appreciate the feedback from someone with fleet experience.
I've always thought I would like a small diesel for fuel savings, but I did the math when the EcoDiesel came out and the premium for the engine and additional maintenance costs just aren't worth it for me. Maybe they are for someone else who tows a lot.

Dirttracker18

Now there is a response I can respect. Based on your experience I can see why you would say that and again I can respect that. What I took issue with is the blanket statement.

Agree to disagree and only time will tell.

ecobeest

Oh my.... Are the children done in this thread now? Good lord.


Having owned F-150 with the Triton and my Eco and now my PSD personally I wouldn't be interested in an oil burner F-150. Mostly because my trucks are owned to tow with. The oil burner F-150 will have significantly reduced payload.


Interesting idea and was bound to happen, Ford will do well with them and they will find their niche. Wouldn't work for me. As long as Ford doesn't screw up the body styling as they did with the new PSD (man those things are UUUGGGGLLLYYY).


Now who wants to pick a fight and argue on a forum.... Chill boys.

Aj06bolt12r

Hey now, would you really have read through 8 pages of "childishness" if you were not interested?... or at least mildly entertained?

LordXayd

AJ, Let me start by saying that I appreciate your posts. I get no indication that you are trolling or doing anything other than your best to distribute hard earned experience, so I do not share the opinions of your detractors. I'm sure you've already had your fill of this thread, but if you're willing to post a little more, I'm hoping to steer you in a direction that focuses your responses towards a potential buyer as myself.

About Me: I can strip down and build a computer from scratch. Been doing it since I was child. But I'm a novice where engines are concerned. I know how to change spark plugs, oil, filters, brake pads and some minor mechanical stuff with the assistance of a Chilton or YouTube, but that's about it. I know enough not to cause more damage that I'm resolving and I regularly scan threads whenever doing any kind of work (even minor work) on a car/truck. When something is making a weird sound, I do not have the experience to isolate it like I do with computers. However, I always want to try because I don't like being taken advantage of and I like learning new skills, especially ones that save me a pile of coin. I have a good technical mind, but very little experience and no family/friends to call upon who do. So that's me.

Now I'll quote you on some key points that I have questions or comments regarding...

This statement concerns me. I've been wanting a dieseled vehicle for a long time for reasons I'll go into later. In reading your later posts, you've qualified the 2004 threshold in regards to EPA imposition. Specifically, mandated components to meet their emissions standards. Is that correct?

I am not immune to wanting one because they are cool. I like the throaty irregular churn of the engine. But thankfully, it's not just that. The MPG is good, and at present the pricing ratio of diesel/MPG is currently favoring diesel (in my area anyway). While that's nice, that's not really it for me either. What I primarily want is longevity. Like 300K miles (I want to buy one vehicle that lasts as long as two). With a gas engine, I expect to get 140K to 170K and the thing is done. I'm tired of conserving mileage on my vehicles to make them last longer. I want to be able to just throw miles on the thing and not worry about it. This F150 PowerStroke is a new engine being developed in-house (must be almost done by now). It's not a SD/HD engine, but it is a Ford original (which gives me hope for longevity). The Transit's i5 PowerStroke is theoretically less of an engine than this new one. Using that one as a baseline, do you feel that my 300K mile hope is potentially unfounded?

When I read this response, it sounded more like you were blaming EPA components failure over the engine itself. Here comes my ignorance... I don't know what DEF, DPF, EGR or EGT are. From the way you couched it, they sounded like EPA parts. If I did enough research, I could probably find out. But then, you're being so forthcoming . Anyway, I'm not sure how integrated the EPA parts (if that's what they are) are with the actual engine, but you said replacing them is expensive. I don't suppose these parts are installed somewhere in easy reach and I could just "pluck them off" and head on over to AutoZone (in another vehicle) to pick one up for $69.99? I do have lots of tools. In one of your responses, you said something about tearing half the truck apart to get at the components. I can't do that regardless of research. And that sounds VERY expensive.

You also said somewhere that several of these failures will leave the vehicle by the side of road. I've owned 3 cars, 2 trucks and 2 bikes (all new except for my 1st bike). Not a one of them has ever left me stranded (knock on pixels), probably due to luck and quality maintenance on my part. I sure would hate to get stuck on the interstate when the most expensive vehicle I ever bought was purchased specifically for reliability.

This again makes me thinks it's the EPA components that are failing. The problem is, they're not really EPA components, just mandated components. What is the industry doing, giving the finger to the EPA vicariously through consumers by installing bubble gum machine parts into a commercial grade engine? Or maybe it's just that fundamental diesel engine design is effectively incompatible with these mandates is therefore unreliable at large?


I guess what it really comes down to is useful specifics on "the maintenance costs" that I've so often heard touted. I do not care that the engine will $5k more over the base engine (estimate based on the Ram's $4700 engine/transmission premium over the base), so I do not factor that into lifetime cost savings. It's a one-time expense that I budget out that probably would have been spent on toys otherwise. I'm far more interested in surprise maintenance costs. Not oil/plugs/filters, but unusual stuff not seen with a gas engine. And whether it's likely that an intelligent novice who has the tools and does his research is likely to be able to service these surprises. If I'm going to keep the vehicle for 15-20 years, I'd like to become very familiar with that engine, like an old friend that lasts me indefinitely. Sort of like what the old Bronco owners could do (but with current tech, I like my tech!).

Thanks AJ!

To those that might troll me over this response, you can do so if you like, but know that that is of no relevance to me. Sorry

Aj06bolt12r

LordX.... Ill do my best to answer your questions... off the top of my head. As far as actual pricing of parts or labor times I would have to look that up the same as you, so Ill let you do the homework

I used 2004 as the cut off date for the engines that build light duty diesels their favorable reputation in pickup trucks. It varies a little by manufacturer but in 2004 Ford did away with the 7.3 and introduced the 6.0 to the market.

The 7.3 didn't care how you drove it and didn't really care much about the quality of the fuel you fed it. It would run pretty well on a pretty strong mixture of diesel fuel and used engine oil. As long as you kept up with the maintenance they were pretty much hammer reliable for 300k or more in most cased. Idle them all day or run wide open up a mountain. At stock power levels they were happy.

In 2004 the 6.0 came out and started blowing head gaskets left and right. Oil coolers clogged up. Egr coolers and valves would fail. If you drove them hard and actually pulled trailers they were much happier. But they were prone to failure if idled around and taken on short trips a lot. By the time 2007 rolled around the 6.0's were a little more reliable, Ford/International had made some changes to help them out.
I actually like the 6.0's and the transmissions that came behind them. They sounded great and made good power. If a person could find a nice low mileage 6.0 and bulletproof it right away it could potentially make them good engine. If your not familiar with bulletproofing just google it or search "powerstrokehelp" on YouTube. That mans channel has tons of in depth information on exactly what it takes to try to make a diesel reliable long term.
The 6.4's came after the 6.0 and were even worst than the 6.0. For a long list of reasons. Avoid the 6.4 at all costs no matter what. I literally would not take one for free if I had to keep it long term and pay to repair and maintain it out of my own pocket.

I don't blame anyone for wanting a diesel because it is cool. They are cool. I want one too. I just don't want the potential repair costs looming over my head.
If you were to buy one of these new f-150 diesel trucks and immediately delete the entire emissions system I think you would have a punchers chance of making it to 300k without any catastrophic failures costing in the several thousands of dollars to repair. But that obviously will void your warranty so you would be left holding the bag if the engine did happen to have a design flaw and fail.
If you had for example a head gasket failure, turbo failure, high pressure fuel pump failure which would then contaminate the injectors and require replacing them as well. There is a good chance that these would be dealer only repairs on such a new design, likely requiring removing the cab from the frame of the vehicle to access them. A $7-10k repair bill is not out of the question. Go on ford parts .com or somewhere similar and see what a high pressure fuel pump and 8 injectors costs for a 6.7 Ford. You will get an idea of what I am talking about. Then factor in labor at about $100 an hour or whatever dealers are charging these days. They usually charge more per hour for diesels as well. Because they are a pain in the ***.
Deleting in and of itself will be expensive as well and the software to make the computer run without the emissions software probably wont exist for a while anyway.
If you don't delete I would give you a very low percentage chance of making it to 300k without any major emissions system failures or engine problems caused by the emissions system.
Honestly I think your best bet to make it to 300k with only rock solid routine maintenance is to get a '16 with the 5.0 and 6 speed trans. Id probably throw a new timing chain and related components at 150k just for peace of mind. Proven reliable combo. The 5.0 is absolute gravy to diagnose and repair compared to any new diesel. Just look under the hood of both and see the huge difference in accessibility of the components. Plus it is likely that you could buy a complete new 5.0 crate engine for about the same cost as a high pressure pump and injectors for this new diesel engine. The 6 speed tranny is a known good unit. Who knows about the new 10 speed yet?

Def= diesel exhaust fluid. It is injected into the exhaust of diesel engines to create a chemical reaction that allows them to pass emissions. This requires a separate tank to hold the fluid, a pump, heater, injector, sensors. ECT. added on to the truck. If any of this fails the truck will either go into reduced power mode or shut down until it is repaired.

DPF= Diesel particulate filter. It is like a giant long catalytic converter but much more heavy, complicated and expensive. Used to actually trap the soot produced by the engine. It eventually gets loaded with soot. So then the truck will dump extra diesel into the exhaust to get it hot enough to burn off the soot. Eventually the DPF gets too clogged for this to work. De rating power or shutting down the truck depending on severity. Then you need to have it removed and cleaned professionally which may or may not work or just install a new one. Look up the cost for a new DPF for a 6.7 engine.

EGR = Exhaust gas re-circulation. There is a valve between the exhaust manifold and the intake that opens and closes to allow exhaust gasses back into the engine to be burnt again. This lowers combustion temperatures and effectively makes the engine act like a lower displacement engine when it is open. You can research the hows and whys farther if you like. It would take me a while to explain. On diesel engines the exhaust gas can be super hot. So EGR coolers are necessary, they are heat exchangers that use antifreeze to cool the exhaust gasses before routing them back into the intake. These valves and coolers are prone to getting clogged up with soot and failing. Or getting pin holes in them and allowing coolant to get into the engine or exhaust gasses to get into the coolant system. Both are bad. If enough coolant is allowed into the engine it can puddle in top of the piston when the engine is off. Then when you go to start it the coolant wont compress and you bend a rod. Now you need a new engine. 6.4's liked to do this on occasion.

EGT= exhaust gas temperature sensor. There are lots of these in a new diesel engines exhaust system Usuall three or 4 for the DPF. and one or two for the EGR. Maybe more. They will fail for no reason sometimes, or get coated in soot, or contaminated some other way. If they give a false reading the truck will throw a code. Or derate power. Or shut down until it is fixed.

If you want cost specifics you will need to look it up in your own my friend.
Good luck. Go watch the powerstrokehelp videos, they will give you a good idea what you may be getting yourself into. you can spend a ton of time there.

LordXayd

Thank you, AJ. I will follow up on that.

Finn5033

I just read this entire thread and would like to say I appreciate the posts that AJ has made as well. I never got the idea that he has any agenda other than sharing very useful knowledge to people that may think buying a diesel can save them money. When Ram came out with the ecodiesel I really wanted to get one. But after crunching the numbers I realized there was no way I'd ever recoup the extra cost of the engine over the life of the vehicle. these threads are for sharing information, and I appreciate guys like AJ doing so.