2.7 payload +trailer tow vs 3.5 HD payload+max payload.
03-20-2017, 08:44 PM
#1
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2.7 payload +trailer tow vs 3.5 HD payload+max payload.
I have a 2016 regular cab long bed 2wd f-150 that I use to tow my 7000 pound enclosed car carrier with my race car inside. With ecoboost payload package and trailer tow package (the max you can do with a 2.7.) Works great but I'm thinking about putting an 1800 pound pop up camper in it. But if I do that I will exceed the max combined weight rating. According to the specs, it would work for the 3.5 ecoboost with heavy duty payload and max tow packages, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why (for instance) the tow rating of the 3.5 is 12,000 and the 2.7 only 8500. They both have the 9.75 gear, electronic locking rear end with a 3.73 ratio, auxiliary transmission cooler and stabilizer bar and manual parking brake. It can't be power related as the 2.7 is really strong, much faster loaded than my old 2010 5.4 which was rated at 11,200 tow.
Does anyone know what the actual mechanical differences are between the 2.7 and the 3.5? Is it just springs? I believe but am not positive that the brakes are re same as the ones I have completely fill my 17" wheels.
Thanks!
Does anyone know what the actual mechanical differences are between the 2.7 and the 3.5? Is it just springs? I believe but am not positive that the brakes are re same as the ones I have completely fill my 17" wheels.
Thanks!
03-20-2017, 10:05 PM
#2
Grumpy Old Man
Unless you are a professional engineer (PE) trained in chassis engineering, then don't try to second guess the pros.
GVWR, GCWR, and GAWRs are determined by those pros. Rely on them.
Tow ratings are calculated, based on GCWR minus the weight of the new vehicle with no options other than those required to achieve the GCWR, and no weight in the vehicle except a skinny driver. Ignore the tow ratings and compute your own as GCWR minus the wet and loaded weight of your truck.
Payload is also calculated, based on GVWR minus the weight of your empty unloaded truck. I also ignore the payload and compute my own as GVWR minus the wet and loaded weight of my truck.
And yes, the GCWR is a lot higher for the 3.5L EcoBoost than for the 2.7L EcoBoost. Based on the power and torque of my 3.5L EcoBoost, I have no doubt the PEs did a good job of establishing the GCWR for my truck.
Okay, ignore all that and let's see what you have. GVWR and not GCWR is your limiter, so ignore GCWR for now. You will exceed the GVWR of the F-150 way before you get close to the GCWR.
Your properly loaded 7k trailer should have hitch weight of about 1,000 pounds, including tongue weight and the weight of your WD hitch. Your 4Wheel camper will weigh about 1,800 pounds. So that's a total of 2,800 pounds payload.
Sorry Charlie, but you'll exceed the payload capacity of your F-150 before you add even one pound of other weight in the truck. So the 4Wheel camper is out of the picture until you upgrade to a heavier-duty pickup. So consider a tent, not a pop-up tent camper.
Even the 3.5L EcoBoost drivetrain with the heavy duty payload package (HDPP) will probably be overloaded with 2,800 pounds payload.
GVWR, GCWR, and GAWRs are determined by those pros. Rely on them.
Tow ratings are calculated, based on GCWR minus the weight of the new vehicle with no options other than those required to achieve the GCWR, and no weight in the vehicle except a skinny driver. Ignore the tow ratings and compute your own as GCWR minus the wet and loaded weight of your truck.
Payload is also calculated, based on GVWR minus the weight of your empty unloaded truck. I also ignore the payload and compute my own as GVWR minus the wet and loaded weight of my truck.
And yes, the GCWR is a lot higher for the 3.5L EcoBoost than for the 2.7L EcoBoost. Based on the power and torque of my 3.5L EcoBoost, I have no doubt the PEs did a good job of establishing the GCWR for my truck.
Okay, ignore all that and let's see what you have. GVWR and not GCWR is your limiter, so ignore GCWR for now. You will exceed the GVWR of the F-150 way before you get close to the GCWR.
Your properly loaded 7k trailer should have hitch weight of about 1,000 pounds, including tongue weight and the weight of your WD hitch. Your 4Wheel camper will weigh about 1,800 pounds. So that's a total of 2,800 pounds payload.
Sorry Charlie, but you'll exceed the payload capacity of your F-150 before you add even one pound of other weight in the truck. So the 4Wheel camper is out of the picture until you upgrade to a heavier-duty pickup. So consider a tent, not a pop-up tent camper.
Even the 3.5L EcoBoost drivetrain with the heavy duty payload package (HDPP) will probably be overloaded with 2,800 pounds payload.
Last edited by smokeywren; 03-20-2017 at 10:38 PM.
03-21-2017, 10:17 PM
#3
Agreed, you are in SuperDuty territory with both. It's an either or situation with the F150. Either the camper or the trailer, but not both.
03-22-2017, 06:41 PM
#4
03-22-2017, 08:07 PM
#5
I have a 2016 regular cab long bed 2wd f-150 that I use to tow my 7000 pound enclosed car carrier with my race car inside. With ecoboost payload package and trailer tow package (the max you can do with a 2.7.) Works great but I'm thinking about putting an 1800 pound pop up camper in it. But if I do that I will exceed the max combined weight rating. According to the specs, it would work for the 3.5 ecoboost with heavy duty payload and max tow packages, but for the life of me, I can't figure out why (for instance) the tow rating of the 3.5 is 12,000 and the 2.7 only 8500. They both have the 9.75 gear, electronic locking rear end with a 3.73 ratio, auxiliary transmission cooler and stabilizer bar and manual parking brake. It can't be power related as the 2.7 is really strong, much faster loaded than my old 2010 5.4 which was rated at 11,200 tow.
Does anyone know what the actual mechanical differences are between the 2.7 and the 3.5? Is it just springs? I believe but am not positive that the brakes are re same as the ones I have completely fill my 17" wheels.
Thanks!
Does anyone know what the actual mechanical differences are between the 2.7 and the 3.5? Is it just springs? I believe but am not positive that the brakes are re same as the ones I have completely fill my 17" wheels.
Thanks!
You also need to consider things like cooling, brakes, etc when considering towing. The 2.7 clearly has the power to tow 10 or 11k lbs but ford may not be outfitting it with the biggest cooling systems that the 3.5 gets. I think they should, if I knew I could legally tow 10-11k lbs then I would likely never consider the 3.5 but unfortunately ford has positioned the 2.7 as a mid range motor.
Springs are determined by axle weight ratings. a 3500 lb RAWR will get one set of springs and the 3800 will get another but I dont think the engine choice matters. An HDPP truck will most certainly have a higher spring rate than ANY other F150. They have a 4800 lb RAWR. I know that even with the payload package, the 2.7 doesnt have the same GVWR as the normal(non-HDPP) 3.5 trucks so its possible the springs are also lighter if the AWRS are lower too.
Last edited by mass-hole; 03-22-2017 at 08:12 PM.
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Velosprout (03-27-2017)
03-22-2017, 11:13 PM
#6
Have not been able to prove one way or another that the differential housing itself is different between standard and HDPP, but did find they both use the same exact bearings. It could be the HDPP uses a larger rear cover to hold more fluid.
I also could not find a difference between brakes for 14+, they all use the same part numbers. Only difference I found for the 15+ are for the rears that have the Ebrake parking brake instead of the cable operated one. Pre-14 HDPP did have a difference, 7 lug axles. So 14+ all have the same braking performance, the difference between them all is the suspension and hitch and frame when it comes to actual weight specs.
My last truck was a 14 RWD, no tow package, just a hitch and TBC, and I installed Powerstops on it. When they brought the truck to my house so I could empty it before it went to salvage, I was able to remove the powerstops and put the OEM brakes back on. The Powerstops also are a direct fit on the 2016 4WD that I have now. Pads and rotors are identical. Since they worked so well on the 14 and have plenty of life left, no sense giving them away when I can use them.
So from everything I looked into, the real difference between the different options, Tow package, HDPP, etc., appears to be the springs, wheels, and frame. Tow packages all include transmission cooler and a sway bar, Max Tow has a heavier duty hitch, and front sway bar, and something that has yet TBD upgraded in the rear bumper.
I think Ford reduced towing capacity on the 2.7 to reduce wear and tear on it since the only thing different is the engine itself compared to the 3.5.
Unless someone wants to crawl under a 2.7, a 3.5 with and without the tow packages and measure the frame thickness with calipers to determine if the frames are different.
I also could not find a difference between brakes for 14+, they all use the same part numbers. Only difference I found for the 15+ are for the rears that have the Ebrake parking brake instead of the cable operated one. Pre-14 HDPP did have a difference, 7 lug axles. So 14+ all have the same braking performance, the difference between them all is the suspension and hitch and frame when it comes to actual weight specs.
My last truck was a 14 RWD, no tow package, just a hitch and TBC, and I installed Powerstops on it. When they brought the truck to my house so I could empty it before it went to salvage, I was able to remove the powerstops and put the OEM brakes back on. The Powerstops also are a direct fit on the 2016 4WD that I have now. Pads and rotors are identical. Since they worked so well on the 14 and have plenty of life left, no sense giving them away when I can use them.
So from everything I looked into, the real difference between the different options, Tow package, HDPP, etc., appears to be the springs, wheels, and frame. Tow packages all include transmission cooler and a sway bar, Max Tow has a heavier duty hitch, and front sway bar, and something that has yet TBD upgraded in the rear bumper.
I think Ford reduced towing capacity on the 2.7 to reduce wear and tear on it since the only thing different is the engine itself compared to the 3.5.
Unless someone wants to crawl under a 2.7, a 3.5 with and without the tow packages and measure the frame thickness with calipers to determine if the frames are different.
03-23-2017, 08:34 AM
#7
Senior Member
Have not been able to prove one way or another that the differential housing itself is different between standard and HDPP, but did find they both use the same exact bearings. It could be the HDPP uses a larger rear cover to hold more fluid.
I also could not find a difference between brakes for 14+, they all use the same part numbers. Only difference I found for the 15+ are for the rears that have the Ebrake parking brake instead of the cable operated one. Pre-14 HDPP did have a difference, 7 lug axles. So 14+ all have the same braking performance, the difference between them all is the suspension and hitch and frame when it comes to actual weight specs.
My last truck was a 14 RWD, no tow package, just a hitch and TBC, and I installed Powerstops on it. When they brought the truck to my house so I could empty it before it went to salvage, I was able to remove the powerstops and put the OEM brakes back on. The Powerstops also are a direct fit on the 2016 4WD that I have now. Pads and rotors are identical. Since they worked so well on the 14 and have plenty of life left, no sense giving them away when I can use them.
So from everything I looked into, the real difference between the different options, Tow package, HDPP, etc., appears to be the springs, wheels, and frame. Tow packages all include transmission cooler and a sway bar, Max Tow has a heavier duty hitch, and front sway bar, and something that has yet TBD upgraded in the rear bumper.
I think Ford reduced towing capacity on the 2.7 to reduce wear and tear on it since the only thing different is the engine itself compared to the 3.5.
Unless someone wants to crawl under a 2.7, a 3.5 with and without the tow packages and measure the frame thickness with calipers to determine if the frames are different.
I also could not find a difference between brakes for 14+, they all use the same part numbers. Only difference I found for the 15+ are for the rears that have the Ebrake parking brake instead of the cable operated one. Pre-14 HDPP did have a difference, 7 lug axles. So 14+ all have the same braking performance, the difference between them all is the suspension and hitch and frame when it comes to actual weight specs.
My last truck was a 14 RWD, no tow package, just a hitch and TBC, and I installed Powerstops on it. When they brought the truck to my house so I could empty it before it went to salvage, I was able to remove the powerstops and put the OEM brakes back on. The Powerstops also are a direct fit on the 2016 4WD that I have now. Pads and rotors are identical. Since they worked so well on the 14 and have plenty of life left, no sense giving them away when I can use them.
So from everything I looked into, the real difference between the different options, Tow package, HDPP, etc., appears to be the springs, wheels, and frame. Tow packages all include transmission cooler and a sway bar, Max Tow has a heavier duty hitch, and front sway bar, and something that has yet TBD upgraded in the rear bumper.
I think Ford reduced towing capacity on the 2.7 to reduce wear and tear on it since the only thing different is the engine itself compared to the 3.5.
Unless someone wants to crawl under a 2.7, a 3.5 with and without the tow packages and measure the frame thickness with calipers to determine if the frames are different.
The following users liked this post:
Velosprout (03-27-2017)
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03-23-2017, 09:36 AM
#8
Senior Member
Unless you are a professional engineer (PE) trained in chassis engineering, then don't try to second guess the pros.
GVWR, GCWR, and GAWRs are determined by those pros. Rely on them.
Tow ratings are calculated, based on GCWR minus the weight of the new vehicle with no options other than those required to achieve the GCWR, and no weight in the vehicle except a skinny driver. Ignore the tow ratings and compute your own as GCWR minus the wet and loaded weight of your truck.
Payload is also calculated, based on GVWR minus the weight of your empty unloaded truck. I also ignore the payload and compute my own as GVWR minus the wet and loaded weight of my truck.
And yes, the GCWR is a lot higher for the 3.5L EcoBoost than for the 2.7L EcoBoost. Based on the power and torque of my 3.5L EcoBoost, I have no doubt the PEs did a good job of establishing the GCWR for my truck.
Okay, ignore all that and let's see what you have. GVWR and not GCWR is your limiter, so ignore GCWR for now. You will exceed the GVWR of the F-150 way before you get close to the GCWR.
Your properly loaded 7k trailer should have hitch weight of about 1,000 pounds, including tongue weight and the weight of your WD hitch. Your 4Wheel camper will weigh about 1,800 pounds. So that's a total of 2,800 pounds payload.
Sorry Charlie, but you'll exceed the payload capacity of your F-150 before you add even one pound of other weight in the truck. So the 4Wheel camper is out of the picture until you upgrade to a heavier-duty pickup. So consider a tent, not a pop-up tent camper.
Even the 3.5L EcoBoost drivetrain with the heavy duty payload package (HDPP) will probably be overloaded with 2,800 pounds payload.
GVWR, GCWR, and GAWRs are determined by those pros. Rely on them.
Tow ratings are calculated, based on GCWR minus the weight of the new vehicle with no options other than those required to achieve the GCWR, and no weight in the vehicle except a skinny driver. Ignore the tow ratings and compute your own as GCWR minus the wet and loaded weight of your truck.
Payload is also calculated, based on GVWR minus the weight of your empty unloaded truck. I also ignore the payload and compute my own as GVWR minus the wet and loaded weight of my truck.
And yes, the GCWR is a lot higher for the 3.5L EcoBoost than for the 2.7L EcoBoost. Based on the power and torque of my 3.5L EcoBoost, I have no doubt the PEs did a good job of establishing the GCWR for my truck.
Okay, ignore all that and let's see what you have. GVWR and not GCWR is your limiter, so ignore GCWR for now. You will exceed the GVWR of the F-150 way before you get close to the GCWR.
Your properly loaded 7k trailer should have hitch weight of about 1,000 pounds, including tongue weight and the weight of your WD hitch. Your 4Wheel camper will weigh about 1,800 pounds. So that's a total of 2,800 pounds payload.
Sorry Charlie, but you'll exceed the payload capacity of your F-150 before you add even one pound of other weight in the truck. So the 4Wheel camper is out of the picture until you upgrade to a heavier-duty pickup. So consider a tent, not a pop-up tent camper.
Even the 3.5L EcoBoost drivetrain with the heavy duty payload package (HDPP) will probably be overloaded with 2,800 pounds payload.
Yeah, those pesky marketing guys NEVER have any input to ratings...
03-23-2017, 09:55 AM
#9
Senior Member
This is not necessarily true anymore. You have to check BOTH because it is entirely possible to be over GCWR and below GVWR.
03-23-2017, 10:21 AM
#10
Official HTT Greeter
