Viability of aftermarket CAC (Wagner testing and installation inside)
03-30-2014, 07:48 PM
#1
Viability of aftermarket CAC (Wagner testing and installation inside)
This is part 1 of a multi-part thread.
I shared this on another forum, but there is some vauluble stuff here that I wanted to bring over here too. Hopefully someone get's something out of this.
I got a decent amount of logs taken over the weekend and with the break in the rain, the new Wagner intercooler went in. First off, take a look at how beefy this thing is compared to the stock unit:
Ok, I'll give the juicy information first and what was most surprising to me. The question I had was how drastic of a change in IAT will an aftermarket CAC actually net? What I did is set up the same run back to back, 2 prior to the CAC installation and 2 after. The runs were done from 0-80MPH and I launched the truck at 2000RPM each time. Every run was done with 4x4 engaged and TCS on and 4x4 remained on through the entire run. The goal here was I wanted to provide the maximum amount of sustained MAP load that would stress the intercooler.
The results speak for themselves on this first part.
Run 1 (pre-CAC)
Run 2 (pre-CAC)
Run 3 (post-CAC)
Run 4 (post-CAC)
I was absolutely floored at how fast the stock intercooler is being overwhelmed. You can see the initial drop from the idle/ambient state (when the truck starts to get moving airflow wise) and before even reaching 40MPH, it is building heat at an incredible rate. You'll notice that on both the Wagner runs, the starting IAT was higher based on me being in idle for a long period of time waiting to set the log conditions I wanted. On both of those runs, even with a higher starting IAT, the lowest temp reached 75-77 degrees (about 8 degrees cooler than the stock unit ever reached). The big difference is the sustained temperature the Wagner unit was able to maintain throughout the pulls.
So at this point, I thought how the heck could the stock unit be that inefficient. My initial thought thought was that the SCT tune and increase in boost/timing was exacerbating an already sub-par component. Turns out, it had nothing to do with the tune. I looked at both of my 0-60 runs, both before and after the tuning (from my previous thread here -> https://www.f150forum.com/f70/0-60-testing-sct-livewire-250480/
On the 0-60 runs, both the before and after tune runs exhibited the same initial drop in temperature after the truck got moving but temperature never went higher than 10 degrees from the lowest observed temperature. So the obvious answer is the high loaded condition presented by running in 4x4 really pushed out what the stock CAC limitations are.
So I guess the bottom line on this first part is, if you are launching your truck on 4x4 and leaving it in that mode...you can expect the stock CAC to become heat-soaked very quickly. Based on this being MAP load dependent, I imagine that towing a large amount would also exhibit a very similar condition.
I shared this on another forum, but there is some vauluble stuff here that I wanted to bring over here too. Hopefully someone get's something out of this.
I got a decent amount of logs taken over the weekend and with the break in the rain, the new Wagner intercooler went in. First off, take a look at how beefy this thing is compared to the stock unit:
Ok, I'll give the juicy information first and what was most surprising to me. The question I had was how drastic of a change in IAT will an aftermarket CAC actually net? What I did is set up the same run back to back, 2 prior to the CAC installation and 2 after. The runs were done from 0-80MPH and I launched the truck at 2000RPM each time. Every run was done with 4x4 engaged and TCS on and 4x4 remained on through the entire run. The goal here was I wanted to provide the maximum amount of sustained MAP load that would stress the intercooler.
The results speak for themselves on this first part.
Run 1 (pre-CAC)
Run 2 (pre-CAC)
Run 3 (post-CAC)
Run 4 (post-CAC)
I was absolutely floored at how fast the stock intercooler is being overwhelmed. You can see the initial drop from the idle/ambient state (when the truck starts to get moving airflow wise) and before even reaching 40MPH, it is building heat at an incredible rate. You'll notice that on both the Wagner runs, the starting IAT was higher based on me being in idle for a long period of time waiting to set the log conditions I wanted. On both of those runs, even with a higher starting IAT, the lowest temp reached 75-77 degrees (about 8 degrees cooler than the stock unit ever reached). The big difference is the sustained temperature the Wagner unit was able to maintain throughout the pulls.
So at this point, I thought how the heck could the stock unit be that inefficient. My initial thought thought was that the SCT tune and increase in boost/timing was exacerbating an already sub-par component. Turns out, it had nothing to do with the tune. I looked at both of my 0-60 runs, both before and after the tuning (from my previous thread here -> https://www.f150forum.com/f70/0-60-testing-sct-livewire-250480/
On the 0-60 runs, both the before and after tune runs exhibited the same initial drop in temperature after the truck got moving but temperature never went higher than 10 degrees from the lowest observed temperature. So the obvious answer is the high loaded condition presented by running in 4x4 really pushed out what the stock CAC limitations are.
So I guess the bottom line on this first part is, if you are launching your truck on 4x4 and leaving it in that mode...you can expect the stock CAC to become heat-soaked very quickly. Based on this being MAP load dependent, I imagine that towing a large amount would also exhibit a very similar condition.
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03-30-2014, 07:49 PM
#2
This is part 2 of a multi-part thread.
Ok, so the 1000 dollar question is now why is a lower IAT going to help me? Well, if you know anything about turbocharging/supercharging a vehicle...then you should know that heatsoaking is one ingredient of many that can cause knocking events to occurs. To prove my point, here is a look at the same runs with the knock sensor highlighted:
Run 1 (pre-CAC)
Run 2 (pre-CAC)
Run 3 (post-CAC)
Run 4 (post-CAC)
While this isn't a huge change, the knock shown on the two runs prior to installation of the CAC is still consistent with the knock I have logged with the stock tune. The first two runs (pre-CAC) were 3.63 and 2.55 while the second two runs (post-CAC) were 2.03 and 1.75. The key point here is that the two runs after installing the CAC have logged two of the lowest knock events I have encountered on any WOT run. Clearly by maintaining the IAT at a steady lower temperature, the chance of inducing a knock event from a heat factor alone is much less likely. To further test this, I plan on doing the same test using the stock tune on the new intercooler. My guess is that it will have even lower knock events.
Ok, so the 1000 dollar question is now why is a lower IAT going to help me? Well, if you know anything about turbocharging/supercharging a vehicle...then you should know that heatsoaking is one ingredient of many that can cause knocking events to occurs. To prove my point, here is a look at the same runs with the knock sensor highlighted:
Run 1 (pre-CAC)
Run 2 (pre-CAC)
Run 3 (post-CAC)
Run 4 (post-CAC)
While this isn't a huge change, the knock shown on the two runs prior to installation of the CAC is still consistent with the knock I have logged with the stock tune. The first two runs (pre-CAC) were 3.63 and 2.55 while the second two runs (post-CAC) were 2.03 and 1.75. The key point here is that the two runs after installing the CAC have logged two of the lowest knock events I have encountered on any WOT run. Clearly by maintaining the IAT at a steady lower temperature, the chance of inducing a knock event from a heat factor alone is much less likely. To further test this, I plan on doing the same test using the stock tune on the new intercooler. My guess is that it will have even lower knock events.
Last edited by Justus; 03-30-2014 at 07:52 PM.
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boosted150 (03-30-2014)
03-30-2014, 07:49 PM
#3
This is part 3 of a multi-part thread.
Ok, so by having lower IAT...will I cause the coolant temperature to be lower too? Essentially the answer is no.
Here is the same test with coolant temperature displayed:
Run 1 (pre-CAC)
Run 3 (post-CAC)
I was actually rather surprised at how quickly this engine generates heat. I compared this back to my previous 0-60 (without 4x4 engaged) runs and there wasn't really any difference in how much heat is generated while at WOT. Obviously it was a little less by stopping the truck at 60 instead of 80.
As you can see here though, coolant reaction to the lower sustained IAT doesn't really have any impact. In fact, being that both runs started well over the stock thermostat setting (meaning that it should have been fully open), I really don't see how changing out the thermostat will really provide any value to this cooling system (especially at WOT). I need to do some more digging around in how/if the oil cooling is tied in, but if it is then there would likely be gains to be had by divorcing those systems. Much more so than an aftermarket thermostat would provide (IMO).
As a follow-on to my initial findings, and after seeing some data from another member with a thermostat, it looks like it may be a worthwhile mod. It will certainly help keep the starting temperature lower, as in his testing he never exceeded 200 degrees. More testing in the future for this one.
Ok, so by having lower IAT...will I cause the coolant temperature to be lower too? Essentially the answer is no.
Here is the same test with coolant temperature displayed:
Run 1 (pre-CAC)
Run 3 (post-CAC)
I was actually rather surprised at how quickly this engine generates heat. I compared this back to my previous 0-60 (without 4x4 engaged) runs and there wasn't really any difference in how much heat is generated while at WOT. Obviously it was a little less by stopping the truck at 60 instead of 80.
As you can see here though, coolant reaction to the lower sustained IAT doesn't really have any impact. In fact, being that both runs started well over the stock thermostat setting (meaning that it should have been fully open), I really don't see how changing out the thermostat will really provide any value to this cooling system (especially at WOT). I need to do some more digging around in how/if the oil cooling is tied in, but if it is then there would likely be gains to be had by divorcing those systems. Much more so than an aftermarket thermostat would provide (IMO).
As a follow-on to my initial findings, and after seeing some data from another member with a thermostat, it looks like it may be a worthwhile mod. It will certainly help keep the starting temperature lower, as in his testing he never exceeded 200 degrees. More testing in the future for this one.
Last edited by Justus; 03-30-2014 at 07:54 PM.
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boosted150 (03-30-2014)
03-30-2014, 07:50 PM
#4
This is part 4 of a multi-part thread.
Closing thoughts. Everyday usage on the stock CAC is probably sufficient for the standard user. Clearly the IAT portion is a no-brainer for those pushing their truck with hard launches, increased tuning, or taking runs down the track. I do question the actual "performance gains" you will see by just plugging this component in.
My reason is this:
On the Pre-CAC 0-80 MPH runs, it took 9.296 seconds and 10.749 seconds to reach 80MPH. On the post-CAC runs, it took 9.681 and 10.584 to reach 80MPH. This also checks with the early testing I did from 0-60. Going back to my first test (linked before), I did some testing with 4x4 engaged was able to achieve a repeatable 5.40 second 0-60MPH. After installing the CAC, the fastest 0-60MPH I got was 5.84.
This is probably due to the increase in total CAC footprint and it taking a slightly longer time to generate the same boost pressure the stock unit was seeing. If you take a look at the boost curves in part 3 (green), you will see there are very close to identical. The Wagner runs yielded just a slightly higher spike in initial boost, but overall the boost was pretty close to the same as the stock CAC.
The gains are probably going to be centered around the lower and consistent IAT at WOT. As the lower number is maintained, the ECU will likely try to start pushing stronger timing. Honestly though, I believe the big gains you would expect to see would have be done through custom tuning. Nothing else I've seen so far has shown any significant increase in overall horsepower by just bolting this on.
What about condensation? Well it is obviously too early to tell on the Wagner unit but here is an interesting note on the stock CAC:
After running the crap out of the truck (several WOT runs), and removing the CAC the following morning, there was still moisture in the stock CAC:
Closing thoughts. Everyday usage on the stock CAC is probably sufficient for the standard user. Clearly the IAT portion is a no-brainer for those pushing their truck with hard launches, increased tuning, or taking runs down the track. I do question the actual "performance gains" you will see by just plugging this component in.
My reason is this:
On the Pre-CAC 0-80 MPH runs, it took 9.296 seconds and 10.749 seconds to reach 80MPH. On the post-CAC runs, it took 9.681 and 10.584 to reach 80MPH. This also checks with the early testing I did from 0-60. Going back to my first test (linked before), I did some testing with 4x4 engaged was able to achieve a repeatable 5.40 second 0-60MPH. After installing the CAC, the fastest 0-60MPH I got was 5.84.
This is probably due to the increase in total CAC footprint and it taking a slightly longer time to generate the same boost pressure the stock unit was seeing. If you take a look at the boost curves in part 3 (green), you will see there are very close to identical. The Wagner runs yielded just a slightly higher spike in initial boost, but overall the boost was pretty close to the same as the stock CAC.
The gains are probably going to be centered around the lower and consistent IAT at WOT. As the lower number is maintained, the ECU will likely try to start pushing stronger timing. Honestly though, I believe the big gains you would expect to see would have be done through custom tuning. Nothing else I've seen so far has shown any significant increase in overall horsepower by just bolting this on.
What about condensation? Well it is obviously too early to tell on the Wagner unit but here is an interesting note on the stock CAC:
After running the crap out of the truck (several WOT runs), and removing the CAC the following morning, there was still moisture in the stock CAC:
Last edited by Justus; 03-30-2014 at 07:55 PM.
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03-31-2014, 10:46 PM
#9
Fantastic write up. Thanks!!
03-31-2014, 11:08 PM
#10
Glad this was useful to you
