Livernois Motorsports 3.5 Ecoboost engine build with upgraded rods and pistons
05-19-2014, 11:44 AM
#12
F150 Forum
Thread Starter
The engine was sent to us with out the turbos from another shop.
The fuel system upgrade for the Ecoboost platform is still in development at this time.
05-19-2014, 11:45 AM
#13
F150 Forum
Thread Starter
The horsepower numbers listed are based on observations of failed engines that we've received at various different power levels. Based on the types of failures, along with the corresponding power levels these engines were at during the failures, we're able to draw up an estimate for the max power capabilities. Like any estimate it's an educated guess based on the data we have to work with. In this case seeing the modes of failure spread out across multiple engines gives a good indication of what the limits are.
Like anything though there are variables that affect these kinds of things, you can take a stock Big Block Chevy out of an old truck and add parts and Nitrous to it and make over 700hp, but how long realistically before it blow's up. I think the term "ticking time bomb" is probably most appropriate in that scenario.
So this isn't to say that as soon as a 3.5L ecoboost hits 450whp for the first time it's guaranteed instant kaboom. But we do know that once you get around that horsepower number that we see a lot of failures in stock engines, so that must be right around the limit before things start failing. Knowing this we try and make an effort to educate the customer so they understand the implications of power at these levels, and that an engine failure at higher power levels like these with a stock engine is entirely possible and in fact likely to occur.
It's important to keep in mind that when the OEM is designing the engine they are only trying to meet the performance criteria for that specific application, while at the same time keeping costs as low as possible. So adding extra strength to components to handle power levels that exceed the stock power output is almost never an option. It would add cost in most cases and is unnecessary, because to the OEM, they have no reason to worry about the engine beyond the stock power output. They'll design it to handle exactly the power output in factory form, then add a small percentage for a safety factor. This is why it's easy to get away with a mild tune and bolt on's on almost any stock vehicle. But as soon as you push outside of the smaller power gains over stock, you'll most likely be pushing the engine to it's limits in stock form.
Like anything though there are variables that affect these kinds of things, you can take a stock Big Block Chevy out of an old truck and add parts and Nitrous to it and make over 700hp, but how long realistically before it blow's up. I think the term "ticking time bomb" is probably most appropriate in that scenario.
So this isn't to say that as soon as a 3.5L ecoboost hits 450whp for the first time it's guaranteed instant kaboom. But we do know that once you get around that horsepower number that we see a lot of failures in stock engines, so that must be right around the limit before things start failing. Knowing this we try and make an effort to educate the customer so they understand the implications of power at these levels, and that an engine failure at higher power levels like these with a stock engine is entirely possible and in fact likely to occur.
It's important to keep in mind that when the OEM is designing the engine they are only trying to meet the performance criteria for that specific application, while at the same time keeping costs as low as possible. So adding extra strength to components to handle power levels that exceed the stock power output is almost never an option. It would add cost in most cases and is unnecessary, because to the OEM, they have no reason to worry about the engine beyond the stock power output. They'll design it to handle exactly the power output in factory form, then add a small percentage for a safety factor. This is why it's easy to get away with a mild tune and bolt on's on almost any stock vehicle. But as soon as you push outside of the smaller power gains over stock, you'll most likely be pushing the engine to it's limits in stock form.
05-20-2014, 03:57 PM
#14
Senior Member
stupid double post
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Putthead714 (05-20-2014)
05-20-2014, 03:58 PM
#15
Senior Member
Mike was making 500+ at the wheels for hundreds of passes and was also over 600 for many more. And he not the only one. With that said there are motors failing at stock power levels. And many over 450hp that are living with no issues what so ever. From my understanding of another company that has taken these motors apart they are good for far more then 500 whp... then again saying less will help sell rods and pistons 
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EcoPowerParts (05-20-2014)
05-22-2014, 09:12 AM
#16
Mike was making 500+ at the wheels for hundreds of passes and was also over 600 for many more. And he not the only one. With that said there are motors failing at stock power levels. And many over 450hp that are living with no issues what so ever. From my understanding of another company that has taken these motors apart they are good for far more then 500 whp... then again saying less will help sell rods and pistons
05-22-2014, 09:34 AM
#17
F150 Forum
I was making 600WHP on my Ford Flex with upgraded ATP turbos, upgraded fuel system with 6 aux injectors and controller, downpipes with cutouts and an Airaid UBI intake.
Pretty easy to hit really, the big deal was running on E85 and getting the fuel to work for it. The engine loves timing with E85.
Pretty easy to hit really, the big deal was running on E85 and getting the fuel to work for it. The engine loves timing with E85.
05-23-2014, 04:33 PM
#18
F150 Forum
Thread Starter
Horsepower, Torque, Durability... and everything in between
Since this topic seems to be a hot one right now I thought it would be wise to further elaborate a little bit on things.
After seeing numerous questions in regards to the power capabilities of the stock OEM engine, along with other questions in regards to other facets of the OE engine it seems like we should delve a little further into this topic.
A quick item that was noticed was the discussion of the OE rod, crank and piston assemblies from the F-150 and the SHO. The parts between these engines are somewhat similar. The crankshaft is the same for the F-150 and the SHO, and the same goes for the connecting rods. This applies to every engine we've seen or taken apart, as well as the part numbers direct from Ford. The crankshaft is forged steel, the rods are forged, though technically that might be a misuse of the word as it's more commonly known because the rods are powdered metal. The process in ways is similar to forging in that pressure is used, but there are other aspects that are different.
Depending on the combination of elements used in the process, and the process itself to some extent, the powdered metal rods can be superior in strength to a forging. But there are sometimes trade-offs, the powdered metal rod might be stiffer than a forging, but might be more brittle. The design specifics of the rods are very much so controlled by the OE for the application. From the OE's side of the game (Ford) they will determine a specific part requirement for the application. This will be based on calculations, computer models, real world testing, etc. All of these things will drive what the final finished component needs to look like. As mentioned other places, the design requirements are all that the OE cares about. They don't concern themselves with making components stronger than they need to be beyond what the safety factor that they've already accounted for ahead of time.
The pistons in both the SHO and F150 are different, they have different designs. Besides the bowl shape being different the struts, skirts, supports are different between the two. From a materials standpoint I don't think either piston really stands out as beefy. But from an OE perspective they perfectly fit their application.
When we discuss power ratings with engines it's always an estimate. No two engines are alike, especially at the OE level where the parts need to just meet the requirements specified. This means some parts will exceed that specification and other parts will be marginal and just meet them. When pushed hard the part that is marginal will be the one that fails. So it's important to keep in mind that a power estimate is a rough approximation of power supported before failure. Some engines will fail under that power, others will support more power. But for those engines that support more power with OE parts, it's important to remember that because the parts are operating at the outer limits of their capacity, that most likely at some point, they will fail.
There is more that goes into the Ecoboost rod & piston upgrade than the component upgrade. From our perspective when we do one of these engines with the upgraded parts there are many other aspects of the build that increase the durability. The purpose of building an upgraded engine with better parts is to support more power, whether that be in the immediate, or in the future with other upgrades (in this case boost/fuel most likely). So when we build one of these engines the upgraded rod and piston are just one element of improving the total package. Other components are upgraded, main studs are added in place of factory bolts. Head studs as well. The changes to the engine from a machining standpoint are too numerous to list, but things like tightened clearance tolerances, revised piston to wall, different ring end gaps, block honing with deck plates, torque distortion simulated machine work, modifications of oil passages, modification of block stress points, oil pump modifications, balance work changes, etc. etc.
The rod and piston upgrade do offer a substantial increase in power capacity over the stock components, but because they are part of a complete engine build, or shortblock build, there are so many other aspects of the engine that get upgraded at the same time to meet the much higher demands of the application. All of these changes are what makes the engine capable of supporting much higher power levels. This allows for higher capacity, better performance and the ability to support much higher power levels going forward.
We've been working with Ecoboost engines for years now, and in that time we've seen a lot, and we've also worked with the OE manufacturers often on this platform. This time spent seeing the engines, building and upgrading the engines, working with the OEs, developing components and testing has all given us a ton of data to work with and build on moving forward. We've got a lot of things in the pipeline too right now, some pretty exciting ones.
So yes, some engines will fail, some won't fail. But we will always err on the side of caution when it comes to advising customers. This means trying to give the best possible information and data as we can upfront and then working with the customer to come to a decision that works for them. If the customer wants to push their stock engine hard and completely understands the risks involved in doing so, then more power to them. And if they plan to push the power and want a solid foundation to work with as they do so, then we'll definitely work with them in building a package that fits their needs exactly.
Since this topic seems to be a hot one right now I thought it would be wise to further elaborate a little bit on things.
After seeing numerous questions in regards to the power capabilities of the stock OEM engine, along with other questions in regards to other facets of the OE engine it seems like we should delve a little further into this topic.
A quick item that was noticed was the discussion of the OE rod, crank and piston assemblies from the F-150 and the SHO. The parts between these engines are somewhat similar. The crankshaft is the same for the F-150 and the SHO, and the same goes for the connecting rods. This applies to every engine we've seen or taken apart, as well as the part numbers direct from Ford. The crankshaft is forged steel, the rods are forged, though technically that might be a misuse of the word as it's more commonly known because the rods are powdered metal. The process in ways is similar to forging in that pressure is used, but there are other aspects that are different.
Depending on the combination of elements used in the process, and the process itself to some extent, the powdered metal rods can be superior in strength to a forging. But there are sometimes trade-offs, the powdered metal rod might be stiffer than a forging, but might be more brittle. The design specifics of the rods are very much so controlled by the OE for the application. From the OE's side of the game (Ford) they will determine a specific part requirement for the application. This will be based on calculations, computer models, real world testing, etc. All of these things will drive what the final finished component needs to look like. As mentioned other places, the design requirements are all that the OE cares about. They don't concern themselves with making components stronger than they need to be beyond what the safety factor that they've already accounted for ahead of time.
The pistons in both the SHO and F150 are different, they have different designs. Besides the bowl shape being different the struts, skirts, supports are different between the two. From a materials standpoint I don't think either piston really stands out as beefy. But from an OE perspective they perfectly fit their application.
When we discuss power ratings with engines it's always an estimate. No two engines are alike, especially at the OE level where the parts need to just meet the requirements specified. This means some parts will exceed that specification and other parts will be marginal and just meet them. When pushed hard the part that is marginal will be the one that fails. So it's important to keep in mind that a power estimate is a rough approximation of power supported before failure. Some engines will fail under that power, others will support more power. But for those engines that support more power with OE parts, it's important to remember that because the parts are operating at the outer limits of their capacity, that most likely at some point, they will fail.
There is more that goes into the Ecoboost rod & piston upgrade than the component upgrade. From our perspective when we do one of these engines with the upgraded parts there are many other aspects of the build that increase the durability. The purpose of building an upgraded engine with better parts is to support more power, whether that be in the immediate, or in the future with other upgrades (in this case boost/fuel most likely). So when we build one of these engines the upgraded rod and piston are just one element of improving the total package. Other components are upgraded, main studs are added in place of factory bolts. Head studs as well. The changes to the engine from a machining standpoint are too numerous to list, but things like tightened clearance tolerances, revised piston to wall, different ring end gaps, block honing with deck plates, torque distortion simulated machine work, modifications of oil passages, modification of block stress points, oil pump modifications, balance work changes, etc. etc.
The rod and piston upgrade do offer a substantial increase in power capacity over the stock components, but because they are part of a complete engine build, or shortblock build, there are so many other aspects of the engine that get upgraded at the same time to meet the much higher demands of the application. All of these changes are what makes the engine capable of supporting much higher power levels. This allows for higher capacity, better performance and the ability to support much higher power levels going forward.
We've been working with Ecoboost engines for years now, and in that time we've seen a lot, and we've also worked with the OE manufacturers often on this platform. This time spent seeing the engines, building and upgrading the engines, working with the OEs, developing components and testing has all given us a ton of data to work with and build on moving forward. We've got a lot of things in the pipeline too right now, some pretty exciting ones.
So yes, some engines will fail, some won't fail. But we will always err on the side of caution when it comes to advising customers. This means trying to give the best possible information and data as we can upfront and then working with the customer to come to a decision that works for them. If the customer wants to push their stock engine hard and completely understands the risks involved in doing so, then more power to them. And if they plan to push the power and want a solid foundation to work with as they do so, then we'll definitely work with them in building a package that fits their needs exactly.
05-23-2014, 09:18 PM
#19
I plan on going to a 2015 next year and if some one does not get the fuel upgrade figured out so I could go turbo's/internals/etc to get like 600whp I'll just go 5.0 and supercharge it. Current truck is amazing with your 93V10, but I want another 200whp or so to really make it fun.