Definitive Full Race Motorsports Eco-Boost Thread
01-08-2016, 10:02 PM
#831
I'm curious if you can go into depth about the PCV delete/Catch can you guys have released? Is this only recommended for vehicles that are tuned, running higher boost pressures, and making more crankcase pressure? I've looked at pictures but does this simply VTA? Any more information you can offer would be great. Any explanation as to why you guys have decided to simply remove the PCV system VS recirculating after a catch can, etc would be awesome.
-Many years ago, engine manufacturers vented crankcase pressure into the atmosphere, using a “road-draft tube” - a hose leading to a vent under the vehicle. Expelling these fumes from an open tube stinks and is not emissions friendly. Plus it allowed dirt and dust to be sucked into the crank case. Then in 1961, the Positive Crankscase Ventilation requirement of 1961 went into effect making it a legal requirement to recirculate the crankcase vapors and burn them inside the engine. Soon after engine manufacturers began venting crankcase pressure from the top of the valve covers.
-The pressure inside the oil sump / crankcase is typically much higher on turbo engines than NA engines. On turbocharged engines we expect to see much more crankcase pressure, due to the nature of forced induction increasing cylinder pressure. Piston rings seal against the cylinder based on combustion pressure applied from above. Excessive pressure underneath the pistons will reduce power and the rings’ ability to seal. All piston rings will leak slightly AKA ‘Blow-By’. When cylinder pressure is higher (like on a turbocharged engine) the piston rings will blow-by/leak more, and there will be an increase in crankcase pressure. Blow-By vapors consist of unburned exhaust hydrocarbons with fuel and soot contaminants from the combustion process. This is the main reason your oil gets tinted dark (not wear).
-PCV is an acronym for Positive crankcase ventilation. The standard PCV routes the hot oily vapor into your intake manifold. Standard PCV doesn't do well with boost, since the check valve "closes" so the driver side is the only one venting when you need it most… not only is it not relieving crankcase pressure when in boost, but it may be leaking boost into the crankcase (or atmosphere) and increasing cylinder pressure.
-The main benefit of "gutting the PCV” is to double the crankcase venting area, lower intake temps and keep oily vapor from going back into your intake. You won't actually be deleting the PCV system… you will simply be making the passenger side valve cover function the same as the driver’s side valve cover. Some people call this “gutting the PCV” - normally it takes 30mbar (.435 psi) to open the passenger side breather, now it’s always open.
-Not all modern NA engines today use a PCV valve — for example GM/Chevy LS engines no longer have a PCV valve and instead use an airflow vent restriction orifice in place of a PCV valve. A small hole allows enough vacuum to draw fumes from the engine, but not enough to cause a rough idle.
-When building a high power NA race engine it is common to see a belt drive vacuum pump, to evacuate the crank case and create negative pressure for +30-40hp gain via improved pressure differential across the ringpack. That same vacuum pump will not produce meaningful vacuum on an equivalent turbocharged engine, and can lose power compared to vents.
-When working with N/A engines, elevated crankcase pressure usually means the engine is heavily worn.
-if you study logs you may be surprosed how much time these engines spend in boost, especially at part throttle cruise. At Idle vacuum, the PCV valve is designed to operate in a low-flow mode where it is just barely open (in order to keep engine idle speed low). I have found zero change or disadvantage in logged crankcase pressure by deleting this check valve metering orifice.
-by deleting the PCV we are no longer pulling fresh air into the engine for maximum emissions burnoff. This also means less watery residue will collect in the can. Instead we are focused on evacuating crankcase pressure, entraining the oil out of crankcase vapors, and achieveing maximum power with elimination of oil from the intake manifold.
my general complaints of competitor canisters that we aimed to improve upon:
-only vented from (1) valve cover during boost (Same as stock)
-multiple check valves create a restriction to airflow. This can increase crankcase pressure higher than stock, causing a loss of power, despite effectively separating the air from the oil
-air oil seperator size was too small and needed to be drained often
-many tanks had no internal baffles and small or no entrainment media
-catch cans often needed to mount in the grille area, this conflicts with intercooler location and looks poor seeing a catch can in the grille
-the OEM connection point behind the throttle body is a common boost leak point
-the pcv valve is a common boost leak point (which can increase crankcase pressure)
correct - along with every other turbocharged engine ever
thanks rbrown!! this means alot coming from you.
Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 01-08-2016 at 10:10 PM.
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BRONCMAN (01-23-2016)
01-08-2016, 10:36 PM
#832
Hi XLT -- our setup can VTA for a max effort HP application. I did this breifly on our freakoboost - but VTA is smelly and it got old, so we normally recommend recircing to the turbo intake tube. Here's info for you to digest (maybe it will raise more questions)
-Many years ago, engine manufacturers vented crankcase pressure into the atmosphere, using a “road-draft tube” - a hose leading to a vent under the vehicle. Expelling these fumes from an open tube stinks and is not emissions friendly. Plus it allowed dirt and dust to be sucked into the crank case. Then in 1961, the Positive Crankscase Ventilation requirement of 1961 went into effect making it a legal requirement to recirculate the crankcase vapors and burn them inside the engine. Soon after engine manufacturers began venting crankcase pressure from the top of the valve covers.
-The pressure inside the oil sump / crankcase is typically much higher on turbo engines than NA engines. On turbocharged engines we expect to see much more crankcase pressure, due to the nature of forced induction increasing cylinder pressure. Piston rings seal against the cylinder based on combustion pressure applied from above. Excessive pressure underneath the pistons will reduce power and the rings’ ability to seal. All piston rings will leak slightly AKA ‘Blow-By’. When cylinder pressure is higher (like on a turbocharged engine) the piston rings will blow-by/leak more, and there will be an increase in crankcase pressure. Blow-By vapors consist of unburned exhaust hydrocarbons with fuel and soot contaminants from the combustion process. This is the main reason your oil gets tinted dark (not wear).
-PCV is an acronym for Positive crankcase ventilation. The standard PCV routes the hot oily vapor into your intake manifold. Standard PCV doesn't do well with boost, since the check valve "closes" so the driver side is the only one venting when you need it most… not only is it not relieving crankcase pressure when in boost, but it may be leaking boost into the crankcase (or atmosphere) and increasing cylinder pressure.
-The main benefit of "gutting the PCV” is to double the crankcase venting area, lower intake temps and keep oily vapor from going back into your intake. You won't actually be deleting the PCV system… you will simply be making the passenger side valve cover function the same as the driver’s side valve cover. Some people call this “gutting the PCV” - normally it takes 30mbar (.435 psi) to open the passenger side breather, now it’s always open.
-Not all modern NA engines today use a PCV valve — for example GM/Chevy LS engines no longer have a PCV valve and instead use an airflow vent restriction orifice in place of a PCV valve. A small hole allows enough vacuum to draw fumes from the engine, but not enough to cause a rough idle.
-When building a high power NA race engine it is common to see a belt drive vacuum pump, to evacuate the crank case and create negative pressure for +30-40hp gain via improved pressure differential across the ringpack. That same vacuum pump will not produce meaningful vacuum on an equivalent turbocharged engine, and can lose power compared to vents.
-When working with N/A engines, elevated crankcase pressure usually means the engine is heavily worn.
-if you study logs you may be surprosed how much time these engines spend in boost, especially at part throttle cruise. At Idle vacuum, the PCV valve is designed to operate in a low-flow mode where it is just barely open (in order to keep engine idle speed low). I have found zero change or disadvantage in logged crankcase pressure by deleting this check valve metering orifice.
-by deleting the PCV we are no longer pulling fresh air into the engine for maximum emissions burnoff. This also means less watery residue will collect in the can. Instead we are focused on evacuating crankcase pressure, entraining the oil out of crankcase vapors, and achieveing maximum power with elimination of oil from the intake manifold.
my general complaints of competitor canisters that we aimed to improve upon:
-only vented from (1) valve cover during boost (Same as stock)
-multiple check valves create a restriction to airflow. This can increase crankcase pressure higher than stock, causing a loss of power, despite effectively separating the air from the oil
-air oil seperator size was too small and needed to be drained often
-many tanks had no internal baffles and small or no entrainment media
-catch cans often needed to mount in the grille area, this conflicts with intercooler location and looks poor seeing a catch can in the grille
-the OEM connection point behind the throttle body is a common boost leak point
-the pcv valve is a common boost leak point (which can increase crankcase pressure)
correct - along with every other turbocharged engine ever
thanks rbrown!! this means alot coming from you.
-Many years ago, engine manufacturers vented crankcase pressure into the atmosphere, using a “road-draft tube” - a hose leading to a vent under the vehicle. Expelling these fumes from an open tube stinks and is not emissions friendly. Plus it allowed dirt and dust to be sucked into the crank case. Then in 1961, the Positive Crankscase Ventilation requirement of 1961 went into effect making it a legal requirement to recirculate the crankcase vapors and burn them inside the engine. Soon after engine manufacturers began venting crankcase pressure from the top of the valve covers.
-The pressure inside the oil sump / crankcase is typically much higher on turbo engines than NA engines. On turbocharged engines we expect to see much more crankcase pressure, due to the nature of forced induction increasing cylinder pressure. Piston rings seal against the cylinder based on combustion pressure applied from above. Excessive pressure underneath the pistons will reduce power and the rings’ ability to seal. All piston rings will leak slightly AKA ‘Blow-By’. When cylinder pressure is higher (like on a turbocharged engine) the piston rings will blow-by/leak more, and there will be an increase in crankcase pressure. Blow-By vapors consist of unburned exhaust hydrocarbons with fuel and soot contaminants from the combustion process. This is the main reason your oil gets tinted dark (not wear).
-PCV is an acronym for Positive crankcase ventilation. The standard PCV routes the hot oily vapor into your intake manifold. Standard PCV doesn't do well with boost, since the check valve "closes" so the driver side is the only one venting when you need it most… not only is it not relieving crankcase pressure when in boost, but it may be leaking boost into the crankcase (or atmosphere) and increasing cylinder pressure.
-The main benefit of "gutting the PCV” is to double the crankcase venting area, lower intake temps and keep oily vapor from going back into your intake. You won't actually be deleting the PCV system… you will simply be making the passenger side valve cover function the same as the driver’s side valve cover. Some people call this “gutting the PCV” - normally it takes 30mbar (.435 psi) to open the passenger side breather, now it’s always open.
-Not all modern NA engines today use a PCV valve — for example GM/Chevy LS engines no longer have a PCV valve and instead use an airflow vent restriction orifice in place of a PCV valve. A small hole allows enough vacuum to draw fumes from the engine, but not enough to cause a rough idle.
-When building a high power NA race engine it is common to see a belt drive vacuum pump, to evacuate the crank case and create negative pressure for +30-40hp gain via improved pressure differential across the ringpack. That same vacuum pump will not produce meaningful vacuum on an equivalent turbocharged engine, and can lose power compared to vents.
-When working with N/A engines, elevated crankcase pressure usually means the engine is heavily worn.
-if you study logs you may be surprosed how much time these engines spend in boost, especially at part throttle cruise. At Idle vacuum, the PCV valve is designed to operate in a low-flow mode where it is just barely open (in order to keep engine idle speed low). I have found zero change or disadvantage in logged crankcase pressure by deleting this check valve metering orifice.
-by deleting the PCV we are no longer pulling fresh air into the engine for maximum emissions burnoff. This also means less watery residue will collect in the can. Instead we are focused on evacuating crankcase pressure, entraining the oil out of crankcase vapors, and achieveing maximum power with elimination of oil from the intake manifold.
my general complaints of competitor canisters that we aimed to improve upon:
-only vented from (1) valve cover during boost (Same as stock)
-multiple check valves create a restriction to airflow. This can increase crankcase pressure higher than stock, causing a loss of power, despite effectively separating the air from the oil
-air oil seperator size was too small and needed to be drained often
-many tanks had no internal baffles and small or no entrainment media
-catch cans often needed to mount in the grille area, this conflicts with intercooler location and looks poor seeing a catch can in the grille
-the OEM connection point behind the throttle body is a common boost leak point
-the pcv valve is a common boost leak point (which can increase crankcase pressure)
correct - along with every other turbocharged engine ever
thanks rbrown!! this means alot coming from you.
01-11-2016, 02:08 PM
#833
Hi XLT -- our setup can VTA for a max effort HP application. I did this breifly on our freakoboost - but VTA is smelly and it got old, so we normally recommend recircing to the turbo intake tube. Here's info for you to digest (maybe it will raise more questions)
-Many years ago, engine manufacturers vented crankcase pressure into the atmosphere, using a “road-draft tube” - a hose leading to a vent under the vehicle. Expelling these fumes from an open tube stinks and is not emissions friendly. Plus it allowed dirt and dust to be sucked into the crank case. Then in 1961, the Positive Crankscase Ventilation requirement of 1961 went into effect making it a legal requirement to recirculate the crankcase vapors and burn them inside the engine. Soon after engine manufacturers began venting crankcase pressure from the top of the valve covers.
-The pressure inside the oil sump / crankcase is typically much higher on turbo engines than NA engines. On turbocharged engines we expect to see much more crankcase pressure, due to the nature of forced induction increasing cylinder pressure. Piston rings seal against the cylinder based on combustion pressure applied from above. Excessive pressure underneath the pistons will reduce power and the rings’ ability to seal. All piston rings will leak slightly AKA ‘Blow-By’. When cylinder pressure is higher (like on a turbocharged engine) the piston rings will blow-by/leak more, and there will be an increase in crankcase pressure. Blow-By vapors consist of unburned exhaust hydrocarbons with fuel and soot contaminants from the combustion process. This is the main reason your oil gets tinted dark (not wear).
-PCV is an acronym for Positive crankcase ventilation. The standard PCV routes the hot oily vapor into your intake manifold. Standard PCV doesn't do well with boost, since the check valve "closes" so the driver side is the only one venting when you need it most… not only is it not relieving crankcase pressure when in boost, but it may be leaking boost into the crankcase (or atmosphere) and increasing cylinder pressure.
-The main benefit of "gutting the PCV” is to double the crankcase venting area, lower intake temps and keep oily vapor from going back into your intake. You won't actually be deleting the PCV system… you will simply be making the passenger side valve cover function the same as the driver’s side valve cover. Some people call this “gutting the PCV” - normally it takes 30mbar (.435 psi) to open the passenger side breather, now it’s always open.
-Not all modern NA engines today use a PCV valve — for example GM/Chevy LS engines no longer have a PCV valve and instead use an airflow vent restriction orifice in place of a PCV valve. A small hole allows enough vacuum to draw fumes from the engine, but not enough to cause a rough idle.
-When building a high power NA race engine it is common to see a belt drive vacuum pump, to evacuate the crank case and create negative pressure for +30-40hp gain via improved pressure differential across the ringpack. That same vacuum pump will not produce meaningful vacuum on an equivalent turbocharged engine, and can lose power compared to vents.
-When working with N/A engines, elevated crankcase pressure usually means the engine is heavily worn.
-if you study logs you may be surprosed how much time these engines spend in boost, especially at part throttle cruise. At Idle vacuum, the PCV valve is designed to operate in a low-flow mode where it is just barely open (in order to keep engine idle speed low). I have found zero change or disadvantage in logged crankcase pressure by deleting this check valve metering orifice.
-by deleting the PCV we are no longer pulling fresh air into the engine for maximum emissions burnoff. This also means less watery residue will collect in the can. Instead we are focused on evacuating crankcase pressure, entraining the oil out of crankcase vapors, and achieveing maximum power with elimination of oil from the intake manifold.
my general complaints of competitor canisters that we aimed to improve upon:
-only vented from (1) valve cover during boost (Same as stock)
-multiple check valves create a restriction to airflow. This can increase crankcase pressure higher than stock, causing a loss of power, despite effectively separating the air from the oil
-air oil seperator size was too small and needed to be drained often
-many tanks had no internal baffles and small or no entrainment media
-catch cans often needed to mount in the grille area, this conflicts with intercooler location and looks poor seeing a catch can in the grille
-the OEM connection point behind the throttle body is a common boost leak point
-the pcv valve is a common boost leak point (which can increase crankcase pressure)
-Many years ago, engine manufacturers vented crankcase pressure into the atmosphere, using a “road-draft tube” - a hose leading to a vent under the vehicle. Expelling these fumes from an open tube stinks and is not emissions friendly. Plus it allowed dirt and dust to be sucked into the crank case. Then in 1961, the Positive Crankscase Ventilation requirement of 1961 went into effect making it a legal requirement to recirculate the crankcase vapors and burn them inside the engine. Soon after engine manufacturers began venting crankcase pressure from the top of the valve covers.
-The pressure inside the oil sump / crankcase is typically much higher on turbo engines than NA engines. On turbocharged engines we expect to see much more crankcase pressure, due to the nature of forced induction increasing cylinder pressure. Piston rings seal against the cylinder based on combustion pressure applied from above. Excessive pressure underneath the pistons will reduce power and the rings’ ability to seal. All piston rings will leak slightly AKA ‘Blow-By’. When cylinder pressure is higher (like on a turbocharged engine) the piston rings will blow-by/leak more, and there will be an increase in crankcase pressure. Blow-By vapors consist of unburned exhaust hydrocarbons with fuel and soot contaminants from the combustion process. This is the main reason your oil gets tinted dark (not wear).
-PCV is an acronym for Positive crankcase ventilation. The standard PCV routes the hot oily vapor into your intake manifold. Standard PCV doesn't do well with boost, since the check valve "closes" so the driver side is the only one venting when you need it most… not only is it not relieving crankcase pressure when in boost, but it may be leaking boost into the crankcase (or atmosphere) and increasing cylinder pressure.
-The main benefit of "gutting the PCV” is to double the crankcase venting area, lower intake temps and keep oily vapor from going back into your intake. You won't actually be deleting the PCV system… you will simply be making the passenger side valve cover function the same as the driver’s side valve cover. Some people call this “gutting the PCV” - normally it takes 30mbar (.435 psi) to open the passenger side breather, now it’s always open.
-Not all modern NA engines today use a PCV valve — for example GM/Chevy LS engines no longer have a PCV valve and instead use an airflow vent restriction orifice in place of a PCV valve. A small hole allows enough vacuum to draw fumes from the engine, but not enough to cause a rough idle.
-When building a high power NA race engine it is common to see a belt drive vacuum pump, to evacuate the crank case and create negative pressure for +30-40hp gain via improved pressure differential across the ringpack. That same vacuum pump will not produce meaningful vacuum on an equivalent turbocharged engine, and can lose power compared to vents.
-When working with N/A engines, elevated crankcase pressure usually means the engine is heavily worn.
-if you study logs you may be surprosed how much time these engines spend in boost, especially at part throttle cruise. At Idle vacuum, the PCV valve is designed to operate in a low-flow mode where it is just barely open (in order to keep engine idle speed low). I have found zero change or disadvantage in logged crankcase pressure by deleting this check valve metering orifice.
-by deleting the PCV we are no longer pulling fresh air into the engine for maximum emissions burnoff. This also means less watery residue will collect in the can. Instead we are focused on evacuating crankcase pressure, entraining the oil out of crankcase vapors, and achieveing maximum power with elimination of oil from the intake manifold.
my general complaints of competitor canisters that we aimed to improve upon:
-only vented from (1) valve cover during boost (Same as stock)
-multiple check valves create a restriction to airflow. This can increase crankcase pressure higher than stock, causing a loss of power, despite effectively separating the air from the oil
-air oil seperator size was too small and needed to be drained often
-many tanks had no internal baffles and small or no entrainment media
-catch cans often needed to mount in the grille area, this conflicts with intercooler location and looks poor seeing a catch can in the grille
-the OEM connection point behind the throttle body is a common boost leak point
-the pcv valve is a common boost leak point (which can increase crankcase pressure)
Cheers.
01-12-2016, 02:59 PM
#834
Senior Member
01-16-2016, 04:28 PM
#835
Geoff,
I have heard the term "gut the PCV." I have my can setup to recirc into turbo, and am going to try VTA because.....well just because I want to smell it for myself.. lol
My question is concerning gutting of the PCV on the passenger side. I plan on taking a drill bit and literally drilling out the internal pieces so that it operates as the drivers side does.
1- will drilling those components out yield any negative effects?
2- other than not having to worry about replacing it again due to issues with the internal check valve within itself, are there any benefits?
Update: after approximately 800 miles I drained approximately 12oz of fluid from the can. It was comprised 75-80% clear liquid, and a little chocolate milk as the remaining.
My draining method was to remove the two 7mm screws and leave all lines attached to the can during draining. Used an allen to loosen the drain plug and emptied into a bottle. Upon completion of draining, I clipped three connections back on the proper fittings and screwed back to firewall. Time: under 2 minutes. Very simple. No ball valve required for draining IMO.
Very impressive and working really well. Thank you
I have heard the term "gut the PCV." I have my can setup to recirc into turbo, and am going to try VTA because.....well just because I want to smell it for myself.. lol
My question is concerning gutting of the PCV on the passenger side. I plan on taking a drill bit and literally drilling out the internal pieces so that it operates as the drivers side does.
1- will drilling those components out yield any negative effects?
2- other than not having to worry about replacing it again due to issues with the internal check valve within itself, are there any benefits?
Update: after approximately 800 miles I drained approximately 12oz of fluid from the can. It was comprised 75-80% clear liquid, and a little chocolate milk as the remaining.
My draining method was to remove the two 7mm screws and leave all lines attached to the can during draining. Used an allen to loosen the drain plug and emptied into a bottle. Upon completion of draining, I clipped three connections back on the proper fittings and screwed back to firewall. Time: under 2 minutes. Very simple. No ball valve required for draining IMO.
Very impressive and working really well. Thank you
01-17-2016, 11:22 AM
#836
Just installed the cold air intake on my 2012 and have keep hearing a pop noise at random times. It happens at part throttle, cruising, and taking off. Similar to a backfire noise. Is this normal or is something on installed correctly? Didn't receive instructions on installing it so I went off the installed pictures on the web page. Do I need to pull the battery after installing to reset the computer? I didn't have this with the factory setup. Best part is its -16 today. So hopefully it's a quick fix to limited time outside.
Thanks,
Thanks,
01-22-2016, 05:23 PM
#838
@flyinfry - killerrudy is probably correct, you are hearing the sound of the compressor recirculation valves "blowing off". part of owning a turbo vehicle, these sounds are normally muffled by the oem intake tube
01-22-2016, 07:06 PM
#839
hey great to hear the catch can is working well for you. As long there is no intake manifold connection, gutting the internals so its like the driver's side will allow a maximized venting area. the valve internals are a significant restriction to flow
01-22-2016, 07:23 PM
#840
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff
hey great to hear the catch can is working well for you. As long there is no intake manifold connection, gutting the internals so its like the driver's side will allow a maximized venting area. the valve internals are a significant restriction to flow