98 F150 XL 4.2L V6 - random overheating (Sorry, another thread)
08-09-2016, 01:20 AM
#1
98 F150 XL 4.2L V6 - random overheating (Sorry, another thread)
Sorry about ANOTHER random overheating thread, but I've read a bunch of them and haven't seen what I take as a definitive solution (or solutions). There was one guy who changed pump, rad, stat, hoses, etc., then proclaimed his problem was over, but he had changed several things at once and you couldn't be sure which was the culprit.
My story: Bought a 98 XL 4.2 V6 w/ 137,200 miles a few weeks ago. Test drove it 13-15 miles in 100 deg weather and didn't notice it get hot. I'm fairly certain I was looking down at the gauges enough to have noticed. Drove it 23-24 miles and didn't notice it hot. Next evening, drove it about 20, had 2 tires put on, then drove back. Didn't notice anything. 2 days later, drove 11, hooked to an empty trailer of about 500 lb. total weight, then drove about 27 miles at no more than 55mph, then the speed limit went up to 65. After about 3 miles at 65, I looked in the mirror and saw the trailer tire was wet.
I knew I hadn't seen any water on the road so immediately was worried that it was coming from the truck. Looked at the gauge and it was on the upper line. Stopped and saw the reservoir tank was boiling out. Sat a while, squirted some water through the fan on to the radiator, refilled the tank after it stopped bubbling. When I started it the gauge was all the way down at about 1/3 of the range, and I didn't think I had sat long enough for it to have cooled that much. (I should say that up until that point, every time I had looked at the gauge after coming up to temp, it was down at the same spot, what I assumed was the t'stat opening point.)
I drove 2-3 miles at 45-50 and all of a sudden, the gauge started to rise rapidly. It didn't take 15 seconds to go all the way to the top, and I had let off the gas. Stopped and the tank was boiling out again. Sat awhile, refilled it and started off again at 45-50. Went ~6 miles and was entering a little town and the gauge started rising again. I coasted on down to 25 and it was still rising, but not as fast as before. It did go all the way up and I eased into a carwash where I sprayed through the radiator for the 4 minute cycle. I started it with the cap off and let it warm back up and topped it off with it at normal operating temp. (I should point add that I was adding only water after the first refill.)
I drove at least 8 miles at 55, then the gauge rapidly went to the top again, right at a gas station. Sprayed water through the rad again, topped the tank off with it warmed back up, then headed towards home. Went ~20 miles with the gauge down at the bottom, then there it went up again. Sprayed the rad again, made it 5-6 miles, hot again. Sprayed the rad again, didn't make it 2 miles before it was hot and boiling out. Sat about 20 minutes and squirted water through the fan again. Drove about 10 miles, stopped at WalMart for a few minutes, then drove 20+ home and the gauge never moved off its normal point.
A day or two later I tried it out again and made it 10-12 miles before the gauge rocketed up, then it was the 2 miles, 5 miles, 2 miles, 8 miles thing. Some of times I could sit 2 minutes, turn on the key, and the gauge would be at normal.
Put in a new Murray 195 t'stat (with a hole drilled in the bottom of the flange), added one of those flush/fill connections to the heater supply hose so I could fill it at the high point, and put in 2 gallons of 100%. I parked it nose high on a steep hump, running, then driver's side high, hoping to get any air out (I had read threads where they said that WAS the problem). I tried it again and got maybe 11 miles before the gauge started up, not as fast this time, and didn't go all the way to the upper line.
I stopped and checked and I didn't think it felt all that hot. I poured water on the rad (top cover removed by this time) and it didn't hiss and boil. It didn't really evaporate very fast at all. I was suspecting the sender/wiring.
I drove about 6 miles and it up again, so I stopped and revved it and the gauge went back down, but started up again after ~1/2 mile at 30 mph. I put it in neutral, rolling, and revved it and the gauge went back down, for about 1/2 a mile again. I kept driving and it kept slowly rising, even as I was coasting downhill the last little bit. When I got stopped at home, it was on H and when I opened the hood, the tank was boiling. This was the mixture that contained 2 gallons of 100% and the remainder water.
I bought a new reservoir tank cap and have tried 2 more times and the exact same thing happens, get 10-12 miles, maybe a little more once, then 2 miles, 1 mile, 5 miles, etc. There isn't any water in the oil. I haven't done a coolant test to check for a leaking head gasket. I'm wondering how the heck it was fine the first 4 or 5 times I drove it, then started this behavior. Maybe the guy I bought it from was able to hide it somehow, or maybe my usual luck struck and it developed a problem right after I bought it. Pulling a 500 pound empty trailer shouldn't have strained it too much.
It is boiling / blowing out the coolant (fairly strong mixture). Most if not all of the bubbles are in the outer portion of the reservoir tank, where the top hose from the radiator discharges. I can fill it to the bottom cold fill line, drive it 10 miles, look, and the level will be down there low, but then when the gauge starts its rapid rise, the level will be all the way to the top of the tank. When the gauge gets to the top line, it will be boiling / bubbling.
The other thing I haven't done is to drain it completely and remove the lower hose to clean it out. I'm assuming this behavior will sound familiar to an expert and it will be an intake gasket or something like that I have to change. But it doesn't make sense how I can drive 10 or 12 miles fine, then once it starts this, sometimes can't get 1 mile before it is boiling again. And how fast the gauge goes up doesn't make sense to me. I guess I need to get an infrared thermometer to see how hot it really is and if it is actually boiling or if those are combustion gas bubbles.
Thanks in advance for any tips.
I had a 95 with the 300 (bought it new) and never had an ounce of problems for nearly 300,000 miles. I actually was looking for a 96 or earlier with a 302 when I found this 98 with 137,200 miles and I thought it would be a pretty good deal if I could get 50 or 60k out of it. I didn't even get 100 before the trouble started.
My story: Bought a 98 XL 4.2 V6 w/ 137,200 miles a few weeks ago. Test drove it 13-15 miles in 100 deg weather and didn't notice it get hot. I'm fairly certain I was looking down at the gauges enough to have noticed. Drove it 23-24 miles and didn't notice it hot. Next evening, drove it about 20, had 2 tires put on, then drove back. Didn't notice anything. 2 days later, drove 11, hooked to an empty trailer of about 500 lb. total weight, then drove about 27 miles at no more than 55mph, then the speed limit went up to 65. After about 3 miles at 65, I looked in the mirror and saw the trailer tire was wet.
I knew I hadn't seen any water on the road so immediately was worried that it was coming from the truck. Looked at the gauge and it was on the upper line. Stopped and saw the reservoir tank was boiling out. Sat a while, squirted some water through the fan on to the radiator, refilled the tank after it stopped bubbling. When I started it the gauge was all the way down at about 1/3 of the range, and I didn't think I had sat long enough for it to have cooled that much. (I should say that up until that point, every time I had looked at the gauge after coming up to temp, it was down at the same spot, what I assumed was the t'stat opening point.)
I drove 2-3 miles at 45-50 and all of a sudden, the gauge started to rise rapidly. It didn't take 15 seconds to go all the way to the top, and I had let off the gas. Stopped and the tank was boiling out again. Sat awhile, refilled it and started off again at 45-50. Went ~6 miles and was entering a little town and the gauge started rising again. I coasted on down to 25 and it was still rising, but not as fast as before. It did go all the way up and I eased into a carwash where I sprayed through the radiator for the 4 minute cycle. I started it with the cap off and let it warm back up and topped it off with it at normal operating temp. (I should point add that I was adding only water after the first refill.)
I drove at least 8 miles at 55, then the gauge rapidly went to the top again, right at a gas station. Sprayed water through the rad again, topped the tank off with it warmed back up, then headed towards home. Went ~20 miles with the gauge down at the bottom, then there it went up again. Sprayed the rad again, made it 5-6 miles, hot again. Sprayed the rad again, didn't make it 2 miles before it was hot and boiling out. Sat about 20 minutes and squirted water through the fan again. Drove about 10 miles, stopped at WalMart for a few minutes, then drove 20+ home and the gauge never moved off its normal point.
A day or two later I tried it out again and made it 10-12 miles before the gauge rocketed up, then it was the 2 miles, 5 miles, 2 miles, 8 miles thing. Some of times I could sit 2 minutes, turn on the key, and the gauge would be at normal.
Put in a new Murray 195 t'stat (with a hole drilled in the bottom of the flange), added one of those flush/fill connections to the heater supply hose so I could fill it at the high point, and put in 2 gallons of 100%. I parked it nose high on a steep hump, running, then driver's side high, hoping to get any air out (I had read threads where they said that WAS the problem). I tried it again and got maybe 11 miles before the gauge started up, not as fast this time, and didn't go all the way to the upper line.
I stopped and checked and I didn't think it felt all that hot. I poured water on the rad (top cover removed by this time) and it didn't hiss and boil. It didn't really evaporate very fast at all. I was suspecting the sender/wiring.
I drove about 6 miles and it up again, so I stopped and revved it and the gauge went back down, but started up again after ~1/2 mile at 30 mph. I put it in neutral, rolling, and revved it and the gauge went back down, for about 1/2 a mile again. I kept driving and it kept slowly rising, even as I was coasting downhill the last little bit. When I got stopped at home, it was on H and when I opened the hood, the tank was boiling. This was the mixture that contained 2 gallons of 100% and the remainder water.
I bought a new reservoir tank cap and have tried 2 more times and the exact same thing happens, get 10-12 miles, maybe a little more once, then 2 miles, 1 mile, 5 miles, etc. There isn't any water in the oil. I haven't done a coolant test to check for a leaking head gasket. I'm wondering how the heck it was fine the first 4 or 5 times I drove it, then started this behavior. Maybe the guy I bought it from was able to hide it somehow, or maybe my usual luck struck and it developed a problem right after I bought it. Pulling a 500 pound empty trailer shouldn't have strained it too much.
It is boiling / blowing out the coolant (fairly strong mixture). Most if not all of the bubbles are in the outer portion of the reservoir tank, where the top hose from the radiator discharges. I can fill it to the bottom cold fill line, drive it 10 miles, look, and the level will be down there low, but then when the gauge starts its rapid rise, the level will be all the way to the top of the tank. When the gauge gets to the top line, it will be boiling / bubbling.
The other thing I haven't done is to drain it completely and remove the lower hose to clean it out. I'm assuming this behavior will sound familiar to an expert and it will be an intake gasket or something like that I have to change. But it doesn't make sense how I can drive 10 or 12 miles fine, then once it starts this, sometimes can't get 1 mile before it is boiling again. And how fast the gauge goes up doesn't make sense to me. I guess I need to get an infrared thermometer to see how hot it really is and if it is actually boiling or if those are combustion gas bubbles.
Thanks in advance for any tips.
I had a 95 with the 300 (bought it new) and never had an ounce of problems for nearly 300,000 miles. I actually was looking for a 96 or earlier with a 302 when I found this 98 with 137,200 miles and I thought it would be a pretty good deal if I could get 50 or 60k out of it. I didn't even get 100 before the trouble started.
Last edited by TW98-V6-42; 08-09-2016 at 01:31 AM.
08-09-2016, 01:45 AM
#2
I'm not exactly sure what the problem is with your truck but I will tell you one thing. Where the needle sits normally is in the 190-225 range. Anything over 225 and it will rise from where it sits normally. 250 is just under the red needle. If your running it close to that line ever 4,5,6,etc miles, your going to be looking at a costly repair bill soon.
08-09-2016, 04:54 AM
#3
50% ethylene glycol will boil at 265F under 15 psig , so I hope its not truly boiling in your system with the cap on.
There is this horrible stuff called blue devil head gasket sealer, that when used can totally clog radiators and cooling systems. While temporarily sealing hg leaks. Id be suspicious of prior use of that kind of thing, and check for signs of it.
If you bubbling in reservoir, below the 15 psi pressurized boiling pt temp......its gas bubbles and not boiling. Gas bubbles only comes one place, and its not a good one. Block test ought to show a severe hg leak if thats the case.
There is this horrible stuff called blue devil head gasket sealer, that when used can totally clog radiators and cooling systems. While temporarily sealing hg leaks. Id be suspicious of prior use of that kind of thing, and check for signs of it.
If you bubbling in reservoir, below the 15 psi pressurized boiling pt temp......its gas bubbles and not boiling. Gas bubbles only comes one place, and its not a good one. Block test ought to show a severe hg leak if thats the case.
Last edited by mbb; 08-09-2016 at 05:00 AM.
08-16-2016, 12:11 AM
#4
mbb, I'm wondering if I have a leak and it is not holding pressure. What is the boiling point of 50% at 0 psig?
I said leak, but what I'm thinking is that after some time at operating temp, the thermal expansion is causing either a gasket to start leaking or a metal crack to open. I had a chance to try it again yesterday and I drove it 12 or 15 around the city streets at low speed, not getting far away. The needle never budged from t'stat opening point down there about 1/4 of the range. I decided I would get out on the interstate but needed to stop back at home first. As I was rolling down the street the last about 1/8 mile at about 5 mph, the gauge started climbing. When I got it parked, the needle was at about 7/8 of the range, not quite to the upper line. I revved it and it went back down and stayed for about 30 seconds at idle. Then it started back up and went all the way to the top in probably 15 seconds. I opened the hood and the tank had bubbles coming up from the lower radiator hose. Not many, then they stopped. I shut it off and had to walk away due to the strong urges of combining a lit match with gasoline.
I said leak, but what I'm thinking is that after some time at operating temp, the thermal expansion is causing either a gasket to start leaking or a metal crack to open. I had a chance to try it again yesterday and I drove it 12 or 15 around the city streets at low speed, not getting far away. The needle never budged from t'stat opening point down there about 1/4 of the range. I decided I would get out on the interstate but needed to stop back at home first. As I was rolling down the street the last about 1/8 mile at about 5 mph, the gauge started climbing. When I got it parked, the needle was at about 7/8 of the range, not quite to the upper line. I revved it and it went back down and stayed for about 30 seconds at idle. Then it started back up and went all the way to the top in probably 15 seconds. I opened the hood and the tank had bubbles coming up from the lower radiator hose. Not many, then they stopped. I shut it off and had to walk away due to the strong urges of combining a lit match with gasoline.
08-16-2016, 12:47 PM
#5
The V6 is very forgiving with your system not holding pressure. I had a crack in the plastic side portion of my radiator and drove it for weeks like that. The pressure bottle boiling over is odd, because that generally means boiling hot liquid in the radiator. It sounds like your radiator isn't sufficiently cooling the water in it because it's clogged up too bad, or the fan clutch is not fully engaging to provide adequate airflow... Or your water pump isn't pumping adequate flow to circulate the coolant in the system.
08-16-2016, 12:51 PM
#6
mbb, I'm wondering if I have a leak and it is not holding pressure. What is the boiling point of 50% at 0 psig?
I said leak, but what I'm thinking is that after some time at operating temp, the thermal expansion is causing either a gasket to start leaking or a metal crack to open. I had a chance to try it again yesterday and I drove it 12 or 15 around the city streets at low speed, not getting far away. The needle never budged from t'stat opening point down there about 1/4 of the range. I decided I would get out on the interstate but needed to stop back at home first. As I was rolling down the street the last about 1/8 mile at about 5 mph, the gauge started climbing. When I got it parked, the needle was at about 7/8 of the range, not quite to the upper line. I revved it and it went back down and stayed for about 30 seconds at idle. Then it started back up and went all the way to the top in probably 15 seconds. I opened the hood and the tank had bubbles coming up from the lower radiator hose. Not many, then they stopped. I shut it off and had to walk away due to the strong urges of combining a lit match with gasoline.
I said leak, but what I'm thinking is that after some time at operating temp, the thermal expansion is causing either a gasket to start leaking or a metal crack to open. I had a chance to try it again yesterday and I drove it 12 or 15 around the city streets at low speed, not getting far away. The needle never budged from t'stat opening point down there about 1/4 of the range. I decided I would get out on the interstate but needed to stop back at home first. As I was rolling down the street the last about 1/8 mile at about 5 mph, the gauge started climbing. When I got it parked, the needle was at about 7/8 of the range, not quite to the upper line. I revved it and it went back down and stayed for about 30 seconds at idle. Then it started back up and went all the way to the top in probably 15 seconds. I opened the hood and the tank had bubbles coming up from the lower radiator hose. Not many, then they stopped. I shut it off and had to walk away due to the strong urges of combining a lit match with gasoline.
Last edited by mbb; 08-16-2016 at 12:57 PM.
08-17-2016, 01:05 AM
#7
The V6 is very forgiving with your system not holding pressure. I had a crack in the plastic side portion of my radiator and drove it for weeks like that. The pressure bottle boiling over is odd, because that generally means boiling hot liquid in the radiator. It sounds like your radiator isn't sufficiently cooling the water in it because it's clogged up too bad, or the fan clutch is not fully engaging to provide adequate airflow... Or your water pump isn't pumping adequate flow to circulate the coolant in the system.
I started removing the water pump, but there are 2 bolts through the compressor bracket that I couldn't get loose and haven't messed with it since.
As far as it being very forgiving not holding pressure, that contradicts what others have said in various overheating threads. I'm not doubting your experience, but so many people have said "the first thing to check is if the reservoir cap is holding pressure, that's the #1 culprit".
I've already installed a new cap. The reason I was going to remove the water pump was to see if the gasket was leaking (can't see any leakage, but maybe it is evaporating at op temp) or if the housing had a crack that might be opening up at op temp and bleeding pressure. It didn't get hot, that I noticed, in the first ~100 miles I drove it, and like Sunday I've driven it 12 or so miles several times before it got hot, so the pump is working. They don't just stop pumping unless the impeller falls off, or possibly some weird clogging or air-locking issue.
I tried the trapped air elimination method of filling it through the top radiator hose then running it with the reservoir cap off. I even installed a flush/fill adapter so I could fill it through the heater hose at the highest point. When it first happened and I read a bunch of threads, I was sure that was the culprit because of the weird way it happens all of a sudden.
You have a good point, I better remove the radiator and have it flushed & checked at a shop.
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08-17-2016, 11:17 AM
#8
Yeah, you are correct about the fan clutch. If it wasn't cooling at highway speed, then it's definitely a water flow problem. The A/C Compressor bolts should break loose and the you should be able to hand thread them out. use PB Blaster, or other penetrating oil, and let them sit a while and try again. I just replaced my A/C compressor clutch, and it about gave me fits trying to get them broken loose.
As far as the pressure thing goes, it's possible mine was still holding a nominal pressure with the crack in the radiator, so it's entirely possible that I'm mistaken.
When I replaced my radiator, I did not do ANYTHING special to refill the system, or bleed any air out and I've been running for months now with no overheating issues at all. I've not researched any special procedures for that process at all. I just filled the pressure bottle up, and kept adding until it wouldn't suck any more out and capped it. Ran around the block a few times until it got up to temp and let it cool, then re-added to the fill mark.
I like the idea of the flush/fill adapter though, I think I'm going to steal that idea!
For sure get that Rad looked at, but make sure it's someone trustworthy. A lot of shops will just tell you that you need a new one just to charge you money.
As far as the pressure thing goes, it's possible mine was still holding a nominal pressure with the crack in the radiator, so it's entirely possible that I'm mistaken.
When I replaced my radiator, I did not do ANYTHING special to refill the system, or bleed any air out and I've been running for months now with no overheating issues at all. I've not researched any special procedures for that process at all. I just filled the pressure bottle up, and kept adding until it wouldn't suck any more out and capped it. Ran around the block a few times until it got up to temp and let it cool, then re-added to the fill mark.
I like the idea of the flush/fill adapter though, I think I'm going to steal that idea!
For sure get that Rad looked at, but make sure it's someone trustworthy. A lot of shops will just tell you that you need a new one just to charge you money.
08-17-2016, 12:02 PM
#9
What worried me about the compressor bracket bolt was how much it was flexing / twisting. It seemed WAY too springy / soft for a threaded-in bolt like that.
If you had a crack in the rad tank, I doubt if it was holding pressure. Maybe your cooling system was simply working well enough that it kept it cool anyway.
The method of refilling through the upper rad hose and running it up to temp with the cap off is the "Ford Service Tech method" which I got off of here or the .net forum.
I stole the flush/fill adapter idea from a guy on the Jeep forum. The Jeep straight 6 has a high heater hose too that gets an air bubble and prevents flow through the heater. "Criminals have no recourse" so steal away, I can't complain.
If you had a crack in the rad tank, I doubt if it was holding pressure. Maybe your cooling system was simply working well enough that it kept it cool anyway.
The method of refilling through the upper rad hose and running it up to temp with the cap off is the "Ford Service Tech method" which I got off of here or the .net forum.
I stole the flush/fill adapter idea from a guy on the Jeep forum. The Jeep straight 6 has a high heater hose too that gets an air bubble and prevents flow through the heater. "Criminals have no recourse" so steal away, I can't complain.