V10 3v timing gears instead of lockouts?
03-09-2019, 04:40 AM
#1
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V10 3v timing gears instead of lockouts?
Long time lurker first time poster. I hope this is not another repeat. I searched and didn't find anything.
I recently purchased a 2004 F150 with a 5.4 3v and it's starting to make the diesel sound. The PO did plugs, coils, manifolds, studs, timing guides, M360 oil pump and tensioners within the last year but didn't do phasers cause they were quiet and had been replaced under warranty years before. I'm looking for a long term fix so I’m leaning toward the SCT X4 tuner and lockout kit to quiet it down and eliminate the VCT crap once and for all.
So here is my question. Instead of installing the lockout wedges in the OEM phasers that come with the kit has anybody tried using the solid timing gears from a 3v V10 or even a 5.4 2v engine? In my mind that would eliminate the risk of the 3 small pins (or any other component) becoming an issue down the road. I've been told the 3 small pins can rattle or fail the same as the large pin thus defeating the effect of the lockout wedges.
I don't know if the teeth are the same, if the diameter is the same, if they mount the same or if they would be clocked the same as the locked up phasers.
Any ideas or experience with this idea?
Thanks,
Bob
I recently purchased a 2004 F150 with a 5.4 3v and it's starting to make the diesel sound. The PO did plugs, coils, manifolds, studs, timing guides, M360 oil pump and tensioners within the last year but didn't do phasers cause they were quiet and had been replaced under warranty years before. I'm looking for a long term fix so I’m leaning toward the SCT X4 tuner and lockout kit to quiet it down and eliminate the VCT crap once and for all.
So here is my question. Instead of installing the lockout wedges in the OEM phasers that come with the kit has anybody tried using the solid timing gears from a 3v V10 or even a 5.4 2v engine? In my mind that would eliminate the risk of the 3 small pins (or any other component) becoming an issue down the road. I've been told the 3 small pins can rattle or fail the same as the large pin thus defeating the effect of the lockout wedges.
I don't know if the teeth are the same, if the diameter is the same, if they mount the same or if they would be clocked the same as the locked up phasers.
Any ideas or experience with this idea?
Thanks,
Bob
03-09-2019, 10:54 AM
#2
LightningRod
Where did you acquire that bit of information from? A lockout ad? The 'phaser noise' is indicative of idle oil pressure sagging below the point required to hold phasers firmly at a fixed point. Could you have broken guides obstructing the oil pump pickup screen, or a blown seal on plastic tensioner. If so, lockouts (or 2v Cam gears - which I would not try) will not address the problem. Only obscure the symptoms of the failure.
03-09-2019, 02:16 PM
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I'm not sure i understand the question. There is no debate that locking the phasers with the wedges or replacing them with solid gears will elimanate the VCT function is there? How could the timing change?
Even though all the items i listed were recently replaced i intend to replace them again while it's open. No reason to take a chance on having a defective part.
So are you thinking a solid gears from a 5.4 2v or v10 v3 will bolt up the same? That would be awesome news and eliminate one more potential source of a failure .
Thanks Again,
Bob
Even though all the items i listed were recently replaced i intend to replace them again while it's open. No reason to take a chance on having a defective part.
So are you thinking a solid gears from a 5.4 2v or v10 v3 will bolt up the same? That would be awesome news and eliminate one more potential source of a failure .
Thanks Again,
Bob
03-09-2019, 04:47 PM
#4
Member
If the PO didn’t use Ford parts, they’ve more than likely failed. Lockouts will give you less power, efficiency and reliability. The choice is yours.
03-09-2019, 05:37 PM
#5
LightningRod
I'm not sure i understand the question. There is no debate that locking the phasers with the wedges or replacing them with solid gears will elimanate the VCT function is there? ...
...
So are you thinking a solid gears from a 5.4 2v or v10 v3 will bolt up the same? That would be awesome news and eliminate one more potential source of a failure .
Thanks Again,
Bob
...
So are you thinking a solid gears from a 5.4 2v or v10 v3 will bolt up the same? That would be awesome news and eliminate one more potential source of a failure .
Thanks Again,
Bob
There is no debate that lockouts will eliminate the VCT 'function'. But that's very different from "quiet it down and eliminate the VCT crap once and for all". Far and wide percentage of the 'noise and VCT crap' originates in components other than the phasers. They are merely the component that evidences the other failures: ie: Chain stretch due to age / wear, broken chain guides, clogged VCT solenoid screens, Oil P/U screen clogged with broken chain guide debris or sludge ... etc. etc. The "eliminate the VCT crap once and for all" just sounds like advertising hype by lockout vendors.
As for the 2valve gears --- is the cam alignment pin the same size / in the same orientation? How do 2valve gears get oiled? I think phasers depend on some oil expelled from phaser chambers getting to gear teeth/chains. They will sure sling oil all over the place with valve covers removed??
03-09-2019, 07:26 PM
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I sure didn't intend to open a debate about VCT. For me it's a matter of eliminated a function that can fail. There are lots of V10's and 2v 5.4's that run great without VCT. I searched for a long time to find the truck I'm working on. I'm 6'7' and 350 pounds. I wanted a F150 or F250 regular cab, 8 foot bed, 4x4 and in the XLT trim. For just a few year Ford made this single cab F150 with a small extension and small extended cab type doors. That small amount of extra room makes the regular cab very livable for a guy my size. Now that I've found this truck I plan on keeping it for a very long time.
That being said I want to do everything I can to fix this once. I don't think anybody can disagree that there are failure items related to the cam phasers and solenoids. Now that something is going bad and it needs come apart why would I not replace everything I can with quality parts and take every opportunity to eliminate any components not needed that can possibly fail...hence the VCT crap. If my choice of terms offended anybody I apologize.
Yes, I understand as with most things in life there is give and take. I don't plan on drag racing the truck and, let's face it, it's a truck the fuel mileage is going to suck regardless so if I lose a couple ponies and/or mpgs in order to safe guard against know failure points so be it. I really think that with a good tune and exhaust the impact on performance can be minimized. Plus I'm saving money (the SCT X4 tuner cost less than 2 Ford phasers alone and I won't need to buy new VCT solenoids) and I'll have a tuner I can use for a wide variety of changes and be able to monitor other systems. Using solid gears from a 5.4 2v or V10 3v just gets me one step closer and eliminates one more potential failure.
All the above is just my opinion and my thought process. We all make and spend our own money. If some like the VCT function I'm not here to try and change your mind.
Now back to the original question and I think F150Torqued asked the questions better than I did. Any input or experience about putting solid cam drive gears on this 5.4 3v motor in place of the cam phasers would be greatly appreciated.
As for the 2valve gears or V10 3v gears --- is the cam alignment pin the same size / in the same orientation? How do 2valve gears get oiled? I think phasers depend on some oil expelled from phaser chambers getting to gear teeth/chains. They will sure sling oil all over the place with valve covers removed??
That being said I want to do everything I can to fix this once. I don't think anybody can disagree that there are failure items related to the cam phasers and solenoids. Now that something is going bad and it needs come apart why would I not replace everything I can with quality parts and take every opportunity to eliminate any components not needed that can possibly fail...hence the VCT crap. If my choice of terms offended anybody I apologize.
Yes, I understand as with most things in life there is give and take. I don't plan on drag racing the truck and, let's face it, it's a truck the fuel mileage is going to suck regardless so if I lose a couple ponies and/or mpgs in order to safe guard against know failure points so be it. I really think that with a good tune and exhaust the impact on performance can be minimized. Plus I'm saving money (the SCT X4 tuner cost less than 2 Ford phasers alone and I won't need to buy new VCT solenoids) and I'll have a tuner I can use for a wide variety of changes and be able to monitor other systems. Using solid gears from a 5.4 2v or V10 3v just gets me one step closer and eliminates one more potential failure.
All the above is just my opinion and my thought process. We all make and spend our own money. If some like the VCT function I'm not here to try and change your mind.
Now back to the original question and I think F150Torqued asked the questions better than I did. Any input or experience about putting solid cam drive gears on this 5.4 3v motor in place of the cam phasers would be greatly appreciated.
As for the 2valve gears or V10 3v gears --- is the cam alignment pin the same size / in the same orientation? How do 2valve gears get oiled? I think phasers depend on some oil expelled from phaser chambers getting to gear teeth/chains. They will sure sling oil all over the place with valve covers removed??
03-09-2019, 10:14 PM
#7
Senior Member
What everyone is trying to get at is that the phaser "failure" is a symptom and not a the problem.
By locking out the phasers you are just masking a more important problem.
IF you currently have the dieseling issue then you have an oil pressure problem, not a phaser problem. The phaser lockout guys have done a good job at advertising and convinced many to mask their issue instead of dealing with it. A lot of what you read is old and prior to the wider knowledge of what is really happening.
And to answer your thought process, a good tune and exhaust will not recover the lost power and efficiency from the lockout and worse yet not deal with the issue of low oil pressure.
By locking out the phasers you are just masking a more important problem.
IF you currently have the dieseling issue then you have an oil pressure problem, not a phaser problem. The phaser lockout guys have done a good job at advertising and convinced many to mask their issue instead of dealing with it. A lot of what you read is old and prior to the wider knowledge of what is really happening.
And to answer your thought process, a good tune and exhaust will not recover the lost power and efficiency from the lockout and worse yet not deal with the issue of low oil pressure.
The following 2 users liked this post by Dirttracker18:
F150Torqued (03-10-2019),
PerryB (03-09-2019)
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03-12-2019, 12:13 PM
#8
Here is what I found. My mechanic put in all new timing components in his wifes Expedition. He also locked out the Phasers. He also then had to get it tuned to make the PCM stop trying to adjust the timing. In all he paid more for everything he did, and it just doesn't run the same. He doesn't care, because he doesn't drive it. After we did my Timing in my truck a few weeks back, he mentioned how much more pep my truck has than his wifes. My truck also has a six inch life and 35's, his wifes is stock.