Hi everyone! I recently bought a 2007 King ranch with high kms, 460K. It was at a garage and the owner decided to sell it instead of the suspected timing chain replacement they figured it needed. Bought the truck, ordered all the parts, Cloyes phaser and timing set, hi volume pump, and solenoids. Got the timing tool set off amazon as well.

I was surprised when I finally opened up the front cover, that the engine was really clean and the chain and tensioners all looked good, the guides looked good too. The problem was evident. The right bank cyl #3 exhaust cam follower failed, whipping out that cam journal and lifter. Replaced all the lifters and rocker arm, even thou they were all in good shape, except for the failed one.

Put it all together and fired right up, ran really smooth. Let it idle for about 15 mins then took it for a test drive. It nearly stalled backing out of my driveway, truck had no power at all and was a struggle for it not to stall. MIL was on, and I pulled the codes. P0016, P0012, P0022, P0345 (I think). Worked through the wiring harness and a few connections had come loose. P0022 and P0345 went away.

The truck now runs and drives pretty good, except the idle is a little rough. I picked up a MOBIS scanner to confirm if it was a timing issue or an electrical problem. Right bank at idle runs about 29 deg advanced while the Left bank runs about 0. At about 1500 both banks come up to about 30 deg. And runs very smooth. The scanner doesn’t have Power Balance option that I could use to see how all cylinders are running but I can see the misfires and at idle the right bank all have a slight misfire and the left have none. At 1500 rpm, all cyl have no misfires.

The right side advance does not change even with the VCT solenoid disconnected. I’ve tried putting 12V right to the solenoid to try and shock it in case it was stuck. Did this several times, switching polarity to ensure it fires in the right direction. Nothing. Also tried disconnecting the alternator, no effect.

There are only two things that stand out as odd. The crankshaft position connector was siliconed on to the sensor. Looked to be because the tang on the connector was broken. Picked up a new connector and when I went to splice it in I found a bare copper wire with corrosion pig tailed around the two wires. I pulled it back about six inches, cleaned it up a bit, re-wrapped the copper wire assuming it was acting a shield the spliced in the new connector. No change.

The only other thing is I did drop the right bank solenoid on assembly, and it fell from the top of the engine to the asphalt driveway. I clean it off and put it in.

I am having a hard time believing the chain is off since it would have to be off by 3 teeth at the crank. I used the timing tool and verified it 3 times. The only chance is when I had to take the tensioners off to pop the cam caps, one bank at a time to install the cam followers as the valve spring compressor tool didn’t work. I took care to keep tension on the chain so that it did not jump a tooth and I have a picture with the crank timing sprocket installed, but I can see the keyway and the black link. Counting the links in the picture from the black link to where the dot on the crank gear would be, if it was rotated to the TDC position at 11 o’clock, it works out bang on.

I did add 5W30 due to the high mileage, but my thinking is the HV oil pump should certainly compensate for the higher viscosity.

Any thoughts please?

 

Really sorry for your heartaches. I always hate to see a fellow forum member have that crap happen after the trouble of a full timing job.

Couple of things raise big red flags for me - and make me question procedures. You say "I've tried putting 12V right to the solenoid to try and shock it..., ..., switching polarity to insure it fires in the right direction". WHAT ???? (you didn't do that via the harness connector with it plugged on the VCT did you?). The pins to the VCT are difficult to get to when harness plug is removed, but I hope THAT is where you 'diddled' with switching polarity.

The VCTs are 'sourced' with VBAT (12 v) and the control wire to PCM is open circuit when NO RETARD is being called for. They are 'modulated' open by square wave pulses to ground by the PCM. The PCM -NEVER- calls for retard below 800 rpm or below 25% engine load. So at those operating conditions I have actuated tested my VCT solenoids at idle with wiring harness connected. Simply grounding the control wire of VCT harness (while connected) VIA a 50 ohm 5w resistor and drag it down a steel file will 'simulate' duty cycle pulses. Idle will 'go to hell' and if idle oil pressure is adequate to push phaser back to full advance (base position), idle will clear up when you quit.

Your post concerning 'degrees advance' gives me pause also. But I think if I substitute 'retard' for advance in each case - I am not at all comfortable with procedures not loosing timing somewhere. Did you say you "removed tensioners and cam caps after setting time? ????? Did you 'count links' (30 from crank dot-not including one straddling the dot - up to and including the one just before phaser timing mark, BOTH DIRECTIONS)? That 'cannot be done' successfully after assembly.

I'm unfamiliar with MOBIS scanner. But the grounding VCT solenoid test should help identify if a phaser and/or solenoid is working at all.

Where 'good' OEM phasers used. (NOT Chinese or so-called CNC-better than original junk ones). We here have seen those be NO GOOD right out of the box, as well as after 50 miles.

 

Thank you for your reply F150Torqued. I say advanced as that is the description of the PID on the scanner.This does not change with the solenoid connected or not on the right bank. The phasers are from Cloyes, a new product from them. I hope they are not junk.. Yes after I set the timing I moved on to installing the cam followers as that was the way the instructional y tube video went by that ford tech in chicago, but the spring compressor didnt work, so my only option was to pop the cam caps.

This is the best after pic I have you can see the black links top and bottom, looks like they would line up?

 

Believe me @cobracooter I'm not beating up on you about procedures and methods. I'd give my eye tooth to help. It is just that I hate getting EGG ON THE FACE talking about something I don't know anything about - and the MOBIS falls squarely in that category.

There is controversy and discussions here about HOW the PCM reports cam position on OBDII. Chicken or Egg thing. The PCM calculates desired degrees retard and commands Phasers to 'go there' by duty cycle pulses to VCTs. When it reads cams 'actual' position, it outputs something on OBDII that some identify as difference from the commanded retard as ('VCTERR') and others view it as cam position/ '+' or '-' from (base or where PCM is commanding) ??? gets confusing. But that is for another day.

What I conclude from your scanner screen at idle (727 RPM & 19% load) and with VCTDC & VCTDC2 both at ZERO% duty cycle (The PCM is calling for NO retard), BOTH cams should be at 'base timing' (which I interpret as Zero º Advance -OR retard for that matter). So does the scanner display ERROR as difference from ACTUAL cam position minus Requested Retard, or is it Requested Retard minus Actual cam position. What I do know, the system has no capability of advancing forward of TDC as I 'THINK' the engine is an interference engine.

However I also know, Banks should not differ - much for long. Looking at a saved / magnified version of your photo very carefully, I believe you could be out of time. I believe that enough, based on the Photo and your codes, that I am recommending removal of a valve cover to VERIFY phaser 5th finger is positioned 'OVER' the "L" timing mark. (If the cam internals are at base timing [zero retard], the 5th finger will be sitting directly above the "L" timing mark on both phasers.

Timing just cannot be confirmed (or debunked) from the photo. Engine has been rotated so timing marks will not re-align perfectly again for 122 revolutions. But there is something 'subtle' in your photo that bothers me. Your 'crank' position (judging by Crank Keyway) is a few clockwise degrees shy of 11 o'clock (or TDC). Considering the 2 to 1 ratio of Crank<>Phaser moving 'forward' (clockwise) a few degrees - would move BOTH phasers forward 1/2 the degrees.

When I look at the (best as I can tell) photo blow ups and compare manual photo of timing marks, and 'visualize' how your timing marks would then be positioned forward (clockwise) a few degrees ---- I BELIEVE Bank 1 would NOT arrive at the correct position. (I recognize your engine is on #1 Exhaust stroke, but timing is the same - just that Phasers are 180º position. (IE: "L" and "R" on phasers are reversed).

Notice the 5th finger on Bank 2 pointing straight down where the "L" would be beneath it. The "R" would be on top roughly where timing mark should sit. But on Bank1, I question if the "R" (visable) would be positioned enough forward to put the "L" in the right timing mark position on that bank. (( REPEAT) 180º out - but relative positions are what I'm talking about. That would put it over-retarded (Or late getting where it needed to be). And that corresponds to your DTCs.

I know this is a LONG and confusing post - but I hope it helps.

==================== Take a look at these photo blow ups of your picture

Approximation drawing of timing mark positions.

Notice crank keyway and tone ring missing tooth positions

Bank 1 Phaser ^^^

Bank 2 Phaser ^^^

 

The tone ring is missing a tooth to designate 0° crank. (To match the keyway on the crank)

 

Thank you @F150Torqued I was able to finally get to getting the valve cover off (been busy with the family vacation, then a mile long list of things the truck needs to pass the safety inspection)

With the crank pulley TDC marker just past the TDC marking on the timing cover, this is what I get. It is hard to say if it is out or not as many illustrations and videos show it in the position mine is in, while others show it a little more rotated clockwise.

What makes no sense is that at partial loads, the scanner shows both banks to have the same advance and same VCTDC %. Only at idle does the timing appear out? No misfires at all positions..

 

The oil is not a problem . Not clear if you changed all lashs and all followers at these miles 285k miles is a lot . . Lifting the cams and changing all is best done at the point where crank dot is locked at six oclock = keyway at 11 oclock . With cams facing per book on no1 and 5 you can slowly install cams using the the cam bolts a little at a time in sequence until all are at 89 inch pounds . Then you put chains on using help on cam phasor bolts as you are fighting valve springs . It doesn't take much just to hard to do by yourself . It is possible you have junk in vct housings . At this point you could do a flush and try swapping vcts to see if problems move .
But its never a good idea to use non oem phasors . As you can see there is more than one way to do a timing job . I wouldn't use that valve tool either . Inspect your phasors at rest with three tines up the middle tang should be right lined up with the L.

 

I found a tag on the driver side of the block, its a Ford re manufactured engine dated 2010, which explains why it was so clean and the timing chains and tensioners looked good. I replaced all the lifters and 8 rockers, the bad one and then the worst 7 of the rest. They were all pretty good.

At the time of the photo, I switched out the vct that I dropped during the initial repair with the old one out of the driver side that ran fine. I'll try flushing it, but it runs the same at idle with the right side vct connected or not.

If the timing looks OK, then wondering if the crankshaft position sensor could be failing. Is it possible to produce just enough signal at crank that it will allow it to start, and then the signal overcomes the resistance at part load?

 

Oh, and the phasers are new ones that Cloyes makes and they claim are better than oem

 

Absorb everything 150Torque says about the electrical, dude knows more about the PCM than I could ever want to know.

1) did you replace the cam because of its failed location? I’m not a fan of torquing the cam against the springs, not gonna get proper torque against spring pressure. Easy to pull aluminum, and the spring compressor tool isn’t hard to use. Again that’s me.

2) your Cloyes phasers are still suspect. I seem to recall a few posts where guys had found them to have failed right out of the box.

3) it’s not impossible, but these engines are pretty damn hard to mid time. You have to be either trying or reallly drunk. I doubt that occurred.