tritonscrewgie

Can lobes scored






Aren't factory rails orange?






Timing and Aluminum Shavings
Hi All,
I am working on the dreaded 5.4 (2004 F150). I have 2 questions. First, for the life of me I cannot get my head around the timing procedure.

Second, I have aluminum shavings in my engine.

I've always been a hands-on guy when it comes to my own car. I very rarely take my car to a shop; however I have been lucky I gues b/c the extent of my biggest repair was a water pump! Well that's all changing with my first F150.

Timing as well as electrical are my weak points. When it comes to math Im lost!

Anyhow I unknowingly purchased a 2004 F150 w the 5.4, boy have I learned quick! I was receiving the P0012 and 34/35 error codes. After some research as well as the symptoms (dies and idles rough after warm up, diesel sound coming from phasers, rattle on startup, I had all the classic issues) I decided to tear into my motor.

Now let me first say this, I don't know what all the stuff about the passenger valve cover is, I got mine off real easy! After removing the fender insert it was a piece of cake. Also power steering pump came right out.

I think someone did this repair before b/c it looked like original timing rails were orange, mine are black, and of course broken. Lots of sludge too.

After pulling my timing cover, I discovered that the chains had worn grooves into the cover. One thing that puzzles me is I see alot of the same problems but no one ever seems to mention all the aluminum shavings, I guess this is not a problem?? If you have a rattle on startup related to phasers/timing, that's what it is.

Anyhow I had shavings in the cover, under the valve covers and I have yet to remove the oil pan (but I will) and I expect the oil pump screen to be full of them and probably some in the pan.

How come no one talks about this? Lots of guys have the phaser/broken timing rail issues in which the rails will rub the cover (rattle on startup) yet no mention of the shavings! You would think this would be a big concern but no one mentions it.

Thanks for sticking with me. I'll get to the point now.

Shavings:
An old timer friend of mine suggested once I get it back together to do heavy tranny fluid mixed w oil flush (although alot of guys recommend against that with this motor). He said fill it more full (like 5 qts oil and 3 qts tranny fluid; it takes 7 qts regularly) and run it for 10 minutes and change filter and do it again.

I seen elsewhere about someone saying use water, which makes me nervous. How about kerosene. Also can I/ should I go from underneath and remove rod caps and try to clean the bearings of each rod? Can this be done?

It ran perfect and quiet before i started this job.

Can this motor survive? With all the issues out there with this it looks to not be a problem as people just replace rails and phasers and it's fine. What about the shavings from all these trucks??! You would think there would be a thousand threads on the shavings just like the phasers but there isn't, what the heck?? If you broke a rail, you will have shavings!

My plan is to blast everything real good with air and carb cleaner from top and bottom. Can I get by without removing the heads (I hear this is a big job and don't want to do it).

Should I plan on an engine fail in the future? If and when it fails I will have done the phasers and timings and cams, could I get by with an overhaul later while leaving these new parts alone or will they be compromised?

You notice the cam wear, I would gather the main bearing would be the same, no gouges, just scored down to the copper, I have seen worse. PS I have removed all the valve cover bolts but the wiring harness is in the way to actually lift out the valve cover but you can see a couple of the cam lobes in the picture. What should I do?

Timing:
Now this is where I am really lost! I have read the final guide to phasers and watched videos til Im blue in the face.

Here is what I cannot understand: Some say 10 oclock, some say 11 or 12 oclock, then go to 6 oclock, which the heck is it? I KNOW WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE: MARKS ON CHAINS LINED UP WITH MARKS ON PHASERS AND CRANK, BUT HOW THE HECK DO I GET IT THERE??? CAN I TURN EVERYTHING WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE AND THEN PUT ON CHAINS TO THE MARKS??

Also another thing that throws me is some say to remove some followers, others (like the factory book) say to remove the entire cam (which I actual will be replacing), which is it? Also some say to lock the cam with no instruction on how to to this other than the special tool when replacing the phasers, what about when removing the phasers??

I know there is a special tool for the crank, which has it at 6 oclock correct? Cant I just install the tool, move the phasers left and right to 2 and 10 oclock and put on the darn chains??? And what is this about lobes on the cam in a certain direction??? I am lost to high heaven.

Martian

It's not much of a "procedure." The cam phasers only go on one way because they're keyed into the end of the cam. Same with the crank sprocket. The cam phasers have L and R marked on them. L is the driver's side, R is the passenger side of the engine. The chains have three blue links on them, each. Two blue links go overtop of the L or R, getting the letter in between them. The single link on the opposite end of the chain lines up over the dimple in the crank sprocket. Timing complete.

I saw the scraped-up timing cover. Was that only the place shavings were coming from? That might not screw up too much. Hopefully they just flowed down into the pan and then got stuck in the filter. But you may want to replace your oil pump while you're in there, just in case, since the oil (and shavings) have to go through it before making it to the filter.
NO!!! PUT NONE OF THESE IN YOUR ENGINE!

The ever-so-present theory that putting transmission fluid in your crankcase is one that needs to die, expeditiously. Back in "the day," before oil was advanced, it was common practice to put a little TF in the oil to clean the engine because TF had more detergents in it and it was thinner. Nowadays, any approved oil has plenty of detergents, and it's the proper viscosity, rendering the "need" to put TF in your oil utterly useless.


That being said, there is ONE - and only one - cleaner I would recommend in your oil, and that is Kreen. Google it. It's by Kano Labs and is very well lauded both here and on the Bob is the Oil Guy forums.

Neg. You will not necessarily have shavings from a broken rail. How do I know? Mine was broken.

I'm betting it'll be fine if you keep up on your oil changes, follow all this advice, and use quality parts.


Because of the marks, it does not matter if you have your crank at 11, 12, or even 7. The cam phasers and crank sprocket will only fit on their respective shafts one way, and then you rotate the cams to to line up with the marked chain links. Yes, it is that simple.

Remove the cam. Simple. Just take off the cam caps and lift it out. Then the rollers and lifters just pull out because the cam is the only thing in the way.

I locked the cam with vise grips on the shaft (NOT on a lobe). You'll scar the shaft a little bit. Whatever. It'll be fine.
See above - just put the parts on and then make the chain links line up by rotating the camshafts (which will, of course, rotate the phasers, as they're keyed into each other).

tritonscrewgie

Thanks for those. Yes i am pretty sure the shavings went into the pan, however I DO HAVE some under the valve covers.. they were stuck to the splines on the vct solenoids so i know they're throughout the motor.

If you look real close at the lower left rail you can see a crack (the other rail is broken just hadnt fell off yet, there is rubbing on both sides of the timing cover.

I believe that it was driven for awhile like this and pehaps someone put thicker oil in to quiet it down.

I am hoping to clean it up, replace cams and assoc. parts, phasers/tensioners/chains/rails, oil pump and change the oil a few times and hope for the best. I was quoted 4 grand for a reman motor installed; i just bought it for 4 grand and don't want to have 8 in it!

So on the timing, hold down cams with vise grips, set crank at 6 oclock, remove phasers, remove chains and tensioners, replace cams, install phaser and hold with special phaser tool with the little notches on it, turn cams to where the L and R marks are pointing at like 2 oclock on driver side/10 oclock on pass side, line up colored links with phaser marks as well as crank mark, install rails and tensioners?

That Kreen looks like good stuff, $16 a quart, I will get some.

Shawn

Martian

Clean out as much as you can by hand, first with a rag and then maybe with some compressed air. Then when you're done, do a few oil changes pretty close together, maybe 20-45mi or so. Or at least just change the filter.

That's pretty common (and stupid).

Agreed. I really don't think you'll need a new engine, not at this point at least.

The clock doesn't matter. When you slide on the new crank sprocket and then line the single blue chain link up over it, then stretch the chain up to the cam phaser and keep it taught, rotate your camshaft (and hence, the cam phaser) with the vise grips to line up the two blue links with the L or R. That is why crank position really doesn't matter with this position - as long as you can pay attention to the dimple, L, R, and blue links, it's idiot-proof.

A word of advice - if you're going to buy a gallon, get four individual quarts. Otherwise, you'll get charged a $50ish HAZMAT charge (Kano Labs called me and recommended I switch to four quarts instead of a gallon because my order would've cost much more with that charge).

tritonscrewgie

Here's a pic of the pass side cam, lobes are slightly pitted. Replace?
Also there are vise grip marks on the cams, this job was done before. judging from the sludge they ran bad oil and the new one failed, what a shame.

Martian

It's too blurry to tell... to me they look fine, but OEM cams for this truck's engine aren't too expensive, so if you've got the $, why not

tritonscrewgie

the cams look pitted a little, if they are not too much $$$ i will try to get them.

i am still slightly confused. i know the keyway needs to be at 6 oclock when i put on the chains. where does the keyway need to be when you take it apart, when you remove phasers and lift out cams? 12 oclock? and does TDC come into play? the spcial crank tool, when does it go on? and then when you replace cam, when do you vise grip them? if the phaser marks dont line up, with the chain, and you need to turn the cam why the nessicity to lock the cam? do you lock the cam before you remove chains? i hope i am not the only one that cant grasp this!

Martian

They're not bad. I think they're around $130 each if I remember. Not sure though.

Okay... stop and breathe a minute. You really need to get the idea of where to position what OUT OF YOUR HEAD. It does not matter what position the crank is in. Slide the sprockets onto the crankshaft whatever position the crank is in, then put the chains on the timing crank sprocket so the single blue link aligns with the dimple on the crank sprocket. Then bring the chains up to the camshaft, and turn the camshaft with a pair of vise grips to line up the L or R with wherever the pair of blue chain links happen to be when you get the chains to the top. The fact that you have the ability to use vise grips to rotate the camshaft is why you do not need to worry about the position of the crankshaft. No matter what position the crank is in, as long as you align the single blue link at the bottom of the chain with the dimple on the timing crank sprocket, you can manually turn the camshafts to line up with the pair of blue links.

Is it clicking yet?

dyeguy1212

iTrader: (1)

Waaaaait a second, let's not get carried away. For setting timing, no, the crank sprocket dot does not need to be at 6 o'clock.


Let's keep in mind that you do need to pay attention to your TDC (or close to it) cylinder in this procedure. If you manually rotate the camshaft, you need to ensure you aren't pushing a valve down into a cylinder near TDC.


OP, if it makes you feel any better, put the crank sprocket back on the cam shaft. Rotate the crank until the dot on the sprocket is at the 6'oclock position. Then, when you put everything back together, the phasher L and R will be around 2 and 10 o'clock. Then you put the single colored link on the crank sprocket dot, and the double colored links are split by the L and the R. This is the typical and accepted way of doing it. But no, the initial position is not completely necessary to set the timing.


IMO, why not put your crank dot at 6 o'clock, and know that cylinder 1 is at TDC for the remainder of the job?


Also, keep in mind that it's typically the crank sprocket dot at 6 o'clock, not the key way. This will put the key way at 2 o'clock if I recall.

dyeguy1212

iTrader: (1)

And to comment on the OP, I don't think digging into the engine to clear out the shavings is necessary. What damage is done, is likely done.




Keep in mind that aluminum is much softer than the materials it's going to come in contact with. It'll cause some excess wear, but it could be worse.


What's done is done, IMO. With all that being said, I'm **** enough to fork out the cash for a crate engine if there are shavings throughout the engine.