Power loss, 2005 5.4, any ideas?
07-15-2017, 08:53 PM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Power loss, 2005 5.4, any ideas?
After searching and reading a bunch of posts, I decided to ask your help in solving a difficult to diagnose power loss issue in my 5.4.
2005, 170k miles, bought new, maintained better than recommended. Not a mechanic by trade but I can do a lot. Rebuilt a dozen or so engines, half as many transmissions, restored many cars, do own maintenance on everything I own.
Problem;
I have a power loss that feels just like the cats are 80% plugged. Slow takeoff, takes off better if gradually giving the gas. Punch it at speed it will almost slow down, it seems that way but does gradually accelerate. Will run speeds up to 60. May go higher just haven't tried it.
No unusual engine noises
No codes
What's be done;
- New Fuel Filter
- New Air Filter
- Ran a couple of cans of Seafoam through it
- Cleaned mass airlow sensor (it was clean but cleaned it anyway)
- Cleaned throttlebody (not really related to problem but it needed cleaning)
- New Plugs, Autolite
- Checked coil packs via ohm'ed out, all have similar values. (.6M input to output. 5.5k across inputs- Boots are soft, look perfect, dielectric used
- Fuel pressure per FORD manual is 35 to 70 range. I had 68 at key on. leakdown was to 65 after one minute. Strapped gauge to wiper and road tested and constant 55psi observed.
- Flow tested cats by drilling 3/16 hole in front and behind cat, flow seemed the same to me. welded up holes.
- Spent a lot of time reading FORD manual, posts etc, to no avail
I do not have an expensive scanner so I did all I thought I could do. Put my tail between my legs and carried it to local and largest FORD dealer we have. I live in central NC.
They kept it 4 days doing the following:
- Reflashed the PCM
- Cleared all learned codes
- Checked many other things that they said were good.
- Said nothing shows up on scanner as a problem.
- Boroscoped the cats and said they were bad and needed replacing. I questioned this but the mechanic said they were melting and broken up (he lied by the way)
- Taken to great welder/exhaust specialist and had new cats installed, there was nothing wrong with the old ones once they were removed and inspected
- Had new muffler and duals ran (I had wanted to do this and thought now is the time and I can eliminate the old muffler collapsing as an issue)
Took it back to FORD and "#$&$%" (gripped)
- They kept it another 2 weeks checking everything (their words, not mine)
- Said it had bad carbon deposits in cylinders causing spark knock which was retarding the timing
- They did a “power flush” of all cylinders and installed new spark plugs
- Problem is NO different than before but they called and said to come get the truck because they did not know what else they could do to it. They hold to the carbon issue and said keep throwing fuel cleaner in it. They did not charge me anything, parts or labor, and cut me a check for the new cats since they so adamantly instructed replacement was necessary.) (That was great but I still have a truck that has a power loss problem)
Since I got it back I have done the following:
- Poured water down the throttlebody to breakup any carbon in the cylinders. May sound hokey to some but if you ever pulled a head that had a coolant to cylinder leak or had a water injection system on a drag car, you know it works.
- Ohm’ed out the knock sensors and they were 4.5M ohms which is FORD spec
- Bought new knock sensors and did not install but hooked them up, insulated them and taped them to the firewall. If spark knock exist I would hear it and the engine would be running better. Neither occurred which indicated carbon buildup is not the issue. (hope I can return them?)
- Decided after all my reading to replace the VCT solenoids. FORD had a follow-up part number so some changes were made and a lot of people had problems with these. Sounded like a good pre maintenance thing to do to me. This was the first time I have seen inside the engine, it was incredibly clean. Always used Motorcraft Syn and changed oil every 3k to 4k miles. VCT solenoids were intact, meaning screens were in place and all looked perfect. (NO difference in performance after installing new ones.)
I have 2 more things I plan to do but I am running out of ideas and thought I would start a post to see if there is some poor soul like me that has had this problem.
Thanks for any help.
2005, 170k miles, bought new, maintained better than recommended. Not a mechanic by trade but I can do a lot. Rebuilt a dozen or so engines, half as many transmissions, restored many cars, do own maintenance on everything I own.
Problem;
I have a power loss that feels just like the cats are 80% plugged. Slow takeoff, takes off better if gradually giving the gas. Punch it at speed it will almost slow down, it seems that way but does gradually accelerate. Will run speeds up to 60. May go higher just haven't tried it.
No unusual engine noises
No codes
What's be done;
- New Fuel Filter
- New Air Filter
- Ran a couple of cans of Seafoam through it
- Cleaned mass airlow sensor (it was clean but cleaned it anyway)
- Cleaned throttlebody (not really related to problem but it needed cleaning)
- New Plugs, Autolite
- Checked coil packs via ohm'ed out, all have similar values. (.6M input to output. 5.5k across inputs- Boots are soft, look perfect, dielectric used
- Fuel pressure per FORD manual is 35 to 70 range. I had 68 at key on. leakdown was to 65 after one minute. Strapped gauge to wiper and road tested and constant 55psi observed.
- Flow tested cats by drilling 3/16 hole in front and behind cat, flow seemed the same to me. welded up holes.
- Spent a lot of time reading FORD manual, posts etc, to no avail
I do not have an expensive scanner so I did all I thought I could do. Put my tail between my legs and carried it to local and largest FORD dealer we have. I live in central NC.
They kept it 4 days doing the following:
- Reflashed the PCM
- Cleared all learned codes
- Checked many other things that they said were good.
- Said nothing shows up on scanner as a problem.
- Boroscoped the cats and said they were bad and needed replacing. I questioned this but the mechanic said they were melting and broken up (he lied by the way)
- Taken to great welder/exhaust specialist and had new cats installed, there was nothing wrong with the old ones once they were removed and inspected
- Had new muffler and duals ran (I had wanted to do this and thought now is the time and I can eliminate the old muffler collapsing as an issue)
Took it back to FORD and "#$&$%" (gripped)
- They kept it another 2 weeks checking everything (their words, not mine)
- Said it had bad carbon deposits in cylinders causing spark knock which was retarding the timing
- They did a “power flush” of all cylinders and installed new spark plugs
- Problem is NO different than before but they called and said to come get the truck because they did not know what else they could do to it. They hold to the carbon issue and said keep throwing fuel cleaner in it. They did not charge me anything, parts or labor, and cut me a check for the new cats since they so adamantly instructed replacement was necessary.) (That was great but I still have a truck that has a power loss problem)
Since I got it back I have done the following:
- Poured water down the throttlebody to breakup any carbon in the cylinders. May sound hokey to some but if you ever pulled a head that had a coolant to cylinder leak or had a water injection system on a drag car, you know it works.
- Ohm’ed out the knock sensors and they were 4.5M ohms which is FORD spec
- Bought new knock sensors and did not install but hooked them up, insulated them and taped them to the firewall. If spark knock exist I would hear it and the engine would be running better. Neither occurred which indicated carbon buildup is not the issue. (hope I can return them?)
- Decided after all my reading to replace the VCT solenoids. FORD had a follow-up part number so some changes were made and a lot of people had problems with these. Sounded like a good pre maintenance thing to do to me. This was the first time I have seen inside the engine, it was incredibly clean. Always used Motorcraft Syn and changed oil every 3k to 4k miles. VCT solenoids were intact, meaning screens were in place and all looked perfect. (NO difference in performance after installing new ones.)
I have 2 more things I plan to do but I am running out of ideas and thought I would start a post to see if there is some poor soul like me that has had this problem.
Thanks for any help.
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o6S1D9e (12-07-2021)
07-19-2017, 03:46 PM
#2
05 5.4l 3v s.crew lariat
Ohming coils does not prove much
Did you clean all terminals of cops . Did you replace boots instead of of just a visual inspection .
If they look so good would you hold them in your bare hand while 30,000 volts is put down the center? No! high volts only needs a bad spot or a pin hole . Boots need to be replaced when plugs are done . Heat and oils degrade them .
Do you have a spark tester , that will give you a visual on spark intensity .
Don't think I'm doubting your abilities, just trying to see what you might have missed/can't see . I wonder about your intake runner control or a vacuum leak .
Misfires often won't set codes they have to last a long time . It hard to believe it is not shuddering when it refuses to keep accelerating .
Its at 170k mine at 177 k I had to do timing at 130k . Ford should have spotted timing problems . Its good that you have replaced VCTS . Pull oil pan and see if you have plastic in there ,if so timing job required .
Its acting like the timing has jumped but codes should have shown some of that .
The best guy on here may encourage you to have an android phone, a cheap bluetooth code reader and the $ 5 torque pro app . The android phone does not even have to be activated to phone service . All this can be done cheaply .
If they look so good would you hold them in your bare hand while 30,000 volts is put down the center? No! high volts only needs a bad spot or a pin hole . Boots need to be replaced when plugs are done . Heat and oils degrade them .
Do you have a spark tester , that will give you a visual on spark intensity .
Don't think I'm doubting your abilities, just trying to see what you might have missed/can't see . I wonder about your intake runner control or a vacuum leak .
Misfires often won't set codes they have to last a long time . It hard to believe it is not shuddering when it refuses to keep accelerating .
Its at 170k mine at 177 k I had to do timing at 130k . Ford should have spotted timing problems . Its good that you have replaced VCTS . Pull oil pan and see if you have plastic in there ,if so timing job required .
Its acting like the timing has jumped but codes should have shown some of that .
The best guy on here may encourage you to have an android phone, a cheap bluetooth code reader and the $ 5 torque pro app . The android phone does not even have to be activated to phone service . All this can be done cheaply .
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o6S1D9e (12-07-2021)
07-23-2017, 05:24 PM
#3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for the response redfishtd. Doubting my abilities would be ok, I mean, we don't know each other. I don't mind at all, who knows, it might lead to the answer.
Your right, ohming out the coils only tells you if they are not open and if they are not shorting between the windings thereby reducing voltage. The only way to check the boots would be to Meger them which most people don't know what that is. If operated a meger many times in my carrier but I don't own one so that's not an option. Did clean terminals, did not replace boots. Did do a vacuum leak that's when I found a crack in the EVAP Purge Valve and replace it.
Been sick for a week and haven't had a chance to work on it until today. Decided to replace all coilpacks, including boots. Bought Motorcraft. I had high hopes but unfortunately there is no change to the performance. Well, I have a good set of coilpacks now for future troubleshooting.
I haven't taken oil pressure readings but that is next. I know phasers can be affected by low oil press and I know chain tensioners can be the culprit for excess internal oil leakage or chain guides broken and collecting across the screen.
My son came home and he has capabilities of reading the PCM with equipment you mentioned. We looked at a lot but nothing stood out. Not knowing the baseline of some data is though to determine if something is bad.
Next two steps I intent to do are:
- Check oil pump pressure and replace the crank sensor while its on stands.
- I will likely replace phasers, chain, oil pump and all as a next step. In reality if the coil packs had fixed the problem I would be doing this next as a maintenance item anyway. I intend to keep the truck forever.
Thanks again for the ideas. If more come up let me know.
Your right, ohming out the coils only tells you if they are not open and if they are not shorting between the windings thereby reducing voltage. The only way to check the boots would be to Meger them which most people don't know what that is. If operated a meger many times in my carrier but I don't own one so that's not an option. Did clean terminals, did not replace boots. Did do a vacuum leak that's when I found a crack in the EVAP Purge Valve and replace it.
Been sick for a week and haven't had a chance to work on it until today. Decided to replace all coilpacks, including boots. Bought Motorcraft. I had high hopes but unfortunately there is no change to the performance. Well, I have a good set of coilpacks now for future troubleshooting.
I haven't taken oil pressure readings but that is next. I know phasers can be affected by low oil press and I know chain tensioners can be the culprit for excess internal oil leakage or chain guides broken and collecting across the screen.
My son came home and he has capabilities of reading the PCM with equipment you mentioned. We looked at a lot but nothing stood out. Not knowing the baseline of some data is though to determine if something is bad.
Next two steps I intent to do are:
- Check oil pump pressure and replace the crank sensor while its on stands.
- I will likely replace phasers, chain, oil pump and all as a next step. In reality if the coil packs had fixed the problem I would be doing this next as a maintenance item anyway. I intend to keep the truck forever.
Thanks again for the ideas. If more come up let me know.
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o6S1D9e (12-07-2021)
07-24-2017, 11:26 AM
#4
05 5.4l 3v s.crew lariat
Well that's a lot of fixes
Did you do any compression checks, that kind of thing doesn't throw codes . . Timing should show up as same as a stuck phasor, some codes should show up . .
Some on here went down this rabbit hole and they had new plugs bad out of the box . Whether they broke because of the excessive carbon in the head around the snout of the plug ,were roughly installed , or production problems .
I'm a firm believer in cleaning plug snout area with carb cleaner to not break new plugs going in .
Anyway just for your info . A cheap spark tester may be helpful.
A valve /lash adjuster /roller could cause this but some engine noise should be there . Your intake runner control behind manifold is another problem area .
Your vacuum problem find on purge valve was excellent , I had the same on another car . But if you have vacuum leaks ,codes should show lean both banks ??
I myself had a roller thrown to the side but it was noisy .
Before I went in for timing job I did an engine flush ,it made it run worse but I'm glad I did it . Now I do an engine flush every other oil change and I use some marvel m. oil . Didn't bother my new VCTs that I had installed earlier .
I had changed all injectors at 100k because they work so hard and they can cause so much trouble .
If you get access to torque pro-- contact f150 torqued as he is the guru on spotting errors . He can suggest certain setups and tests posted online here and analyze them .
You have way more experience than I do . You may have timing problem but no noise, no codes ??? Open your oil pan and look for plastic guide pieces ?
Sometimes a damaged tone ring on crank shaft can cause havoc .Plastic falls down on it . Low oil pressure should cause phasor codes to be thrown.
If you have to do timing use old style metal ratcheting tensioners, no seals to blow out .
Just throwin some stuff out there.
Some on here went down this rabbit hole and they had new plugs bad out of the box . Whether they broke because of the excessive carbon in the head around the snout of the plug ,were roughly installed , or production problems .
I'm a firm believer in cleaning plug snout area with carb cleaner to not break new plugs going in .
Anyway just for your info . A cheap spark tester may be helpful.
A valve /lash adjuster /roller could cause this but some engine noise should be there . Your intake runner control behind manifold is another problem area .
Your vacuum problem find on purge valve was excellent , I had the same on another car . But if you have vacuum leaks ,codes should show lean both banks ??
I myself had a roller thrown to the side but it was noisy .
Before I went in for timing job I did an engine flush ,it made it run worse but I'm glad I did it . Now I do an engine flush every other oil change and I use some marvel m. oil . Didn't bother my new VCTs that I had installed earlier .
I had changed all injectors at 100k because they work so hard and they can cause so much trouble .
If you get access to torque pro-- contact f150 torqued as he is the guru on spotting errors . He can suggest certain setups and tests posted online here and analyze them .
You have way more experience than I do . You may have timing problem but no noise, no codes ??? Open your oil pan and look for plastic guide pieces ?
Sometimes a damaged tone ring on crank shaft can cause havoc .Plastic falls down on it . Low oil pressure should cause phasor codes to be thrown.
If you have to do timing use old style metal ratcheting tensioners, no seals to blow out .
Just throwin some stuff out there.
07-27-2017, 03:40 PM
#5
Junior Member
Thread Starter
The FORD dealer did compression checks and said all were in specs, he actually said it looked like a new truck readings. Unfortunately, they did not record the values in the work order.
Again, never had a code on anything other than when I unplug something to test it. FORD place saw no codes either.
When I started, one of the first things I did was change the plugs although the old set had less than 6k miles on them. When I took it to FORD dealer they put in another new set after the power flush of the cylinders. In the old days I too have gotten bad condensers out of the box which really sends you for a loop in troubleshooting everything else. So, this was a good thought.
I do have a spark tester and decided to take your advice and check each plug just to see, all are firing, at least at idle.
I do not think I have valve lash/roller issues just for the reasons mentioned. It is a pretty quite engine. I would say no notable difference than when it was new, as best I can remember. I have listened to it up close with a long extension to try and pinpoint anything. All valve train areas seem to be about the same in noise.
Intake runner, now that is something I thought about once weeks ago and then forgot. Great idea, this can cause my problem. I checked both rods and all four clips and everything is in place. I had my wife accelerate it many times and it appears to be moving very freely and at full range. I ran the truck and got it up to temp and repeated, all is working.
Vacuum leak, not sure I can do anything else in this area, again, no codes. If it were running too lean for an extended period of time I would have cat problems. Old ones looked great.
Oil pressure check turned out good. 65psi cold, 55psi hot running at 50mph, 23psi at hot idol. Touch it and press jumps to 50 – 60psi range.
Thanks for the other opinions as well.
Tomorrow I start tearing it down to change phasers/chain/tensioners/oil pump. As mentioned I think this is a good thing to do with the mileage I have on the truck. However, I have no confidence this is going to fix any symptom that I have. I hope to be surprisingly wrong. It’ll take me a few weeks, I’m a lot slower than I use to be but I will post results after this to hopefully help someone else out that has similar issues.
Again…thanks for your time.
Again, never had a code on anything other than when I unplug something to test it. FORD place saw no codes either.
When I started, one of the first things I did was change the plugs although the old set had less than 6k miles on them. When I took it to FORD dealer they put in another new set after the power flush of the cylinders. In the old days I too have gotten bad condensers out of the box which really sends you for a loop in troubleshooting everything else. So, this was a good thought.
I do have a spark tester and decided to take your advice and check each plug just to see, all are firing, at least at idle.
I do not think I have valve lash/roller issues just for the reasons mentioned. It is a pretty quite engine. I would say no notable difference than when it was new, as best I can remember. I have listened to it up close with a long extension to try and pinpoint anything. All valve train areas seem to be about the same in noise.
Intake runner, now that is something I thought about once weeks ago and then forgot. Great idea, this can cause my problem. I checked both rods and all four clips and everything is in place. I had my wife accelerate it many times and it appears to be moving very freely and at full range. I ran the truck and got it up to temp and repeated, all is working.
Vacuum leak, not sure I can do anything else in this area, again, no codes. If it were running too lean for an extended period of time I would have cat problems. Old ones looked great.
Oil pressure check turned out good. 65psi cold, 55psi hot running at 50mph, 23psi at hot idol. Touch it and press jumps to 50 – 60psi range.
Thanks for the other opinions as well.
Tomorrow I start tearing it down to change phasers/chain/tensioners/oil pump. As mentioned I think this is a good thing to do with the mileage I have on the truck. However, I have no confidence this is going to fix any symptom that I have. I hope to be surprisingly wrong. It’ll take me a few weeks, I’m a lot slower than I use to be but I will post results after this to hopefully help someone else out that has similar issues.
Again…thanks for your time.
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o6S1D9e (12-07-2021)
08-28-2017, 03:46 PM
#6
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Got her back together today!
Found the RH timing chain guide in a bunch of pieces. Parts in the oil pan and stuck in the oil pickup tube screen. Replaced oil pump, cam phazers, timing chain, guides, tensioners, crank front seal, crank pulley and crank Sensor. (Used all OEM parts)
Went ahead and replaced the water pump while I had it down. Found a wire to #4 coil chaffed and a few strands broken. Soldered on a new connector pigtail and heat shrunk connection. Replaced the AC dryer since the system had to be broken to remove the RH valve cover.
The guide was not rubbing any part of the cover so that is why no noise was present prior to the teardown. As soon as I saw the guide in pieces I knew the teardown was not in vain but I could not see how this was causing my problem of reduced power by 40%.
Driving shows idle oil pressure at 60psi cold, 60psi hot running at 50mph, 33psi at hot idle.
NO CHANGE IN POWER LOSS PROBLEM.
It sounds the same, runs the same and acts the same.
I welcome any advice on what I might have missed? I have not replaced the fuel injectors and I have not used dynamite yet but I am considering both.
Again, if I ever figure it out, I will post the findings. I hope it is something cheap and/or stupid that I missed.
Thanks
Found the RH timing chain guide in a bunch of pieces. Parts in the oil pan and stuck in the oil pickup tube screen. Replaced oil pump, cam phazers, timing chain, guides, tensioners, crank front seal, crank pulley and crank Sensor. (Used all OEM parts)
Went ahead and replaced the water pump while I had it down. Found a wire to #4 coil chaffed and a few strands broken. Soldered on a new connector pigtail and heat shrunk connection. Replaced the AC dryer since the system had to be broken to remove the RH valve cover.
The guide was not rubbing any part of the cover so that is why no noise was present prior to the teardown. As soon as I saw the guide in pieces I knew the teardown was not in vain but I could not see how this was causing my problem of reduced power by 40%.
Driving shows idle oil pressure at 60psi cold, 60psi hot running at 50mph, 33psi at hot idle.
NO CHANGE IN POWER LOSS PROBLEM.
It sounds the same, runs the same and acts the same.
I welcome any advice on what I might have missed? I have not replaced the fuel injectors and I have not used dynamite yet but I am considering both.
Again, if I ever figure it out, I will post the findings. I hope it is something cheap and/or stupid that I missed.
Thanks
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o6S1D9e (12-07-2021)
08-28-2017, 08:12 PM
#8
Senior Member
Replaced O2 sensors made mine run like new.
08-28-2017, 08:56 PM
#9
Have you looked at live data on a scanner to see what the short term and long term fuel trims are doing?
Also, have you checked the throttle pedal position sensor and the throttle motor itself by removing the air pipes to where you can see the throttle plate and have your wife turn the ignition on and smoothly operate the gas pedal through it's full travel and watch the plate in the throttle body for smooth and full travel?
Also, have you checked the throttle pedal position sensor and the throttle motor itself by removing the air pipes to where you can see the throttle plate and have your wife turn the ignition on and smoothly operate the gas pedal through it's full travel and watch the plate in the throttle body for smooth and full travel?
Last edited by GooseF150; 08-28-2017 at 09:02 PM.
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o6S1D9e (12-07-2021)
08-28-2017, 10:52 PM
#10
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Thanks but it's not the O2 sensors. All four appear to be operating correctly according to the scanner, Ford service center checked them and I observed them on a separate scanner as well. Each bank mirrors the other.
As far as the throttle body operation and full travel, tonight I did as you mentioned, it all is working smoothly with full travel. I had not thought of this check so thanks for bringing it up. I did check it on the scanner which showed they were following each other and opening full but this simple check was a good idea.
I am limited by my scanner so I can not check short and long term trim graphs. I know the Ford service center said they ran a full diagnostic on the fuel system and all was in specs. What are the details of that... who knows. I will consider this more and I am thinking about spending some bucks for a fair scanner. You can spend hundreds or thousands depending on the detail you want to achieve.
Thanks to both of you for your comments/suggestions.
As far as the throttle body operation and full travel, tonight I did as you mentioned, it all is working smoothly with full travel. I had not thought of this check so thanks for bringing it up. I did check it on the scanner which showed they were following each other and opening full but this simple check was a good idea.
I am limited by my scanner so I can not check short and long term trim graphs. I know the Ford service center said they ran a full diagnostic on the fuel system and all was in specs. What are the details of that... who knows. I will consider this more and I am thinking about spending some bucks for a fair scanner. You can spend hundreds or thousands depending on the detail you want to achieve.
Thanks to both of you for your comments/suggestions.
