Tommy J

2004 FX4 120 k. I"ve been chasing a warm start issue for quite some time and decided to pull the fuel rail with injectors attached today and really looked at them for the umpteenth time. It was first thing in the morning so truck sat all night. I turned the key to on and noticed that several would "bleed" out of the bottom when I felt them over and over again. They weren't dripping but just wet enough each time I put my finger under them and touched the bottom to see it on my glove. Most of them had at least a little spot of wetness but a few would just keep bleeding each time I checked. What is considered normal with these things. Some say they should be bone dry and some say a little wetness is ok. Which is it. I would think that the bleeding ones just keep doing it over time even though its slight and might possibly be causing my warm start issue. They are remans from Rock Auto and about 2 yrs old. Who knows where they come from. Could even be from an 05 for all I know unless they are different and even though they clean, flow match and blah blah blah doesn't mean they can't get dirty/go bad right. Also leaning toward injectors because my relatively new cats are making some noise. My torque app always says I have good pressure which doesn't appear to bleed down if I'm looking at it right. Thanks

redfishtd

Injectors can cause a lot of damage , I will change mine again at 200k now at 179k . Not a fan of reman on these ,just my gut feelings .
They operate so many times in that time frame it is hard for me to trust them after that . But I realize they are very expensive but cats are too and a hydrolocked engine is a nightmare .
My view of yours is no small leak is acceptable and it more likely to get worse , Analogy to sink faucet-- the drip never gets better by itself .
Make sure you coat o-rings with motor oil for ease of installation and sealing .
My young renter was struggling for hours to get his in new intake --couldn't do it , I said clean motor oil , his young buddy said maybe wd40 --nope motor oil . They went in in two minutes . Us old guys have done a few things .

Tommy J

Yep, have installed them in the past and know the oil trick on the o rings. So do you know for a fact that any amount of gas coming from these without running is normal? I've been reading some former posts of bad MC spark plugs out of the box. I put the 515 in and MC coils a while back. I agree about the reman injectors versus new but for now I'm trying to figure out this warm start issue. It also doesn't have any kick to it when I gun it. I almost have to baby it up to speed and then it seems ok. My fear is I have to take it to my local Ford and have them run a diagnostic on it. I can't stand the place. Thanks

redfishtd

This is just friendly sharing.
You can do a you tube test and cleaning of your injectors ,mark the weeping ones for double inspection . Me-- I would replace weeping ones .
Your problem of no kick when you gun it sounds more like an IRMC problem ,or intake runner controls . The pcm decides the engine loading and opens and closes the air intake flappers .
Their job is to tune the air swirl in the intake from light load to heavy . The intake runner is behind it and has linkage problems and tends to get jammed or rubbed by wires and hoses . Little plastic pivots age from heat and fall apart .
It is difficult to test as there is no set point ,the pcm decides from different inputs when it should open . It is hard to get to and difficult to fix without pulling intake ,but a fairly common failure. The typical is no top end performance at all .
There are codes for some of the IRMC failures . Mine has not acted up yet , but there's you tube videos about it and a fix . Certainly clean throttle body and the maf that's just good maintenance anyway . Throttle body cleaner with it dismounted , maf cleaner only on maf .
Guys have taped camera screens to their windshield to see if runner moving going down the road ,you really can't load the engine parked .
F150T would probably ask you to look at mode 6 for misfires on your torque pro app . That may help with locating cyl problem , me I'm still too busy to study torque at this point . Misfires usually have shuddering /bucking if bad enough .
Can you describe this warm start issue, is it long cranks and no firing ,coughing . Several tries - failure to catch? To clear a flood it is designed to not start if you hold pedal to floor if that would tell anything .

Tommy J

Actually switched throttle body which came with a new TPS a while back and recently put original back in just because. Both have been cleaned and did the throttle relearn. Maf cleaned several times and installed new not too long ago. I am by no means an expert with pro torque app. I try following some you tube stuff but doesn't seem to work for me.
The warm start issue is this. It starts perfect first thing in the morning. After it has been driven and warmed up and I park it and run an errand for say 10 minutes to an hour it has a "strange crank" almost a sluggish kind of crank but still starts. It doesn't do the normal couple second roll over than start. It starts almost too quick but yet sounds sluggish. its as if I'm powering up an electric toy car. Turn the key and its on without any delay. To make it more complicated sometimes it has an extended crank that may take 2 to 3 tries to get it going. It always starts normal if I immediately try to start it again and will do so 10 times in a row. It always has to sit for a while for it to act up. Never throws a code. Battery, alt and a bunch of new parts over the last yr. All grounds are clean and tight. To add a third element last summer during some really hot days and nights it actually acted up first thing in the morning on one of those days. I thought I was on to something meaning it had something to do with the heat and something under the hood I presume that was getting hot just sitting there all night. It has not done that since. I have stared at the engine and poked and prodded wires and tried to find something obvious but to no avail. I don't even know what I'm looking for. It otherwise drives ok. I don't think its driving like it should. The only compare I have was my 99 which had some power. I know my description sounds complicated but I'm not crazy. I know what a normal crank is because the truck does it several times a day after it has acted up. I'll take any suggestions and might have to be hand held by F150t through the process ha ha . Thanks for your suggestion. You guys thought you were done with me after the timing job huh

buckshot 06

Have you looked at the starter. I had one when it got hot wouldn't start. But if l had a jump the starter had enough power to turn.

Tommy J

You know, I thought that even though its relatively new and I even built a heat shield to go around it during a drive and it still did it. was your truck an 04-08? I know older F 150"s would get starter heat soak. Plus it starts fine warm after the initial issue so I think that would rule out the starter but who knows

F150Torqued

Heat shield would have sounded like a good idea to me too in case the starter has insufficient clearance for armature and rubs when hot. If you have (or can get) access to a current meter and see if starting current is much higher when it is hot.


As for the injectors - I've always viewed them as very difficult to diagnose because the PCM adjusts fuel trim based on four at a time - so you have no view of what a specific one might be doing. One thing that occurs to me, though I've never actually proven it to myself, it seems if injectors were 'weeping' when engine is shut off, it should show up as NEGATIVE short term fuel trim - & rich O2 readings immediately on startup. Also might delay going into closed loop - which should occur within just seconds (maybe 5-7). Once the fuel wetness is cleared through the combustion process they would settle down to normal Idle rates???


I would probably set up a Torque dashboard like the one below and see. Add a closed loop indicator to it (PID 1103 bit 6, equation {A:6}). You might not be able to tell immediately when the PCM goes into closed loop if the O2 sensors are kinda 'stuck' rich for a few seconds. //// I actually prefer to 'flip' the indication so the "1" indicates "Closed Loop instead of 1 meaning "Open Loop". Makes more sense to me! Just modify the formula to -1*{A:6}+1 and use the on/off gauge. ////

PerryB

Yeah, now if I could just figure out how to get that across to my boys (17 and 19). They're WAY smarter than me. Just ask them...

TommyJ - Your injectors should not seep or drip. It'll cause a failed first attempt start when warm - at best - and a hydrolocked/ruined engine at worst. I went through this (the failed warm starts) with the '05 several months ago. Number 6 was my culprit, but I changed them all. This is a place NOT to cut corners with reman or off brand parts. I'd use Ford or U.S. made Echlin's from NAPA.

Tommy J

I will try to get this going. I'm still trying to figure out the torque app and get intimidated by some of the features. The shame of it is that if the injectors are bad I am stuck with rock auto warranty policy and would have to exchange these for new refurbished ones in order not to loose money. I was also under the impression that injectors aren't always bad but maybe just clogged or dirty. I still don't know what is normal or not. They are not dripping and I found it strange that the 4 on the driver side that I kept checking all had some form of wetness although some more than others. I also think my exhaust smells rich especially in the morning on first start up. Thanks for the reply. I will keep at it