The Final Repair Guide to 5.4 Cam Phaser Tick/Knock Sound
Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 50
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@Keshka
I am still baffled (and concerned) by the reading Torque Pro is producing for your RCAM reading. I have mentioned this before - and I notice in this screenshot the highest value has been 2, lowest Zero.
This value is calculated in the PCM and stored at its PID location (available to OBDII readers - like Torque) and used internally / programmatically in the PCM's 'positive feedback' routines to compare against actual retard readings determined from the CMP sensors. Any discrepancy = CamError.
Understanding the flexibility of Torque (whereby we can modify the equation which stands between the OBDII port output - and the display screen), it seems There HAS TO BE an error in the formula for PID # 16CD (RCAM) whereby we are displaying what amounts to garbage data. The ole (garbage in / garbage out scenario).
Can you verify the formula is essentially ABS(SIGNED(A)*256)+B)/12.8
I say 'essentially' because THAT is what I have in mine right now. However, the phenomenal flexibility of Torque Pro would allow us to place the parentheses in different places to make the ABS trash the decimal differently depending on what we wish to display on gauges. (You know if you are using a Digital gauge display - you can specify number of decimal places ON the gauge settings). But for now I would like to make sure your equation is producing something reasonable from the OBDII data.
** ALSO ** (Credits to @harveje) I have found and determined there is a 'SECOND' Requested Retard signal generated by the PCM for the Cam on Bank 2. !!!! It is at PID # 091C, and the equation is identical to the above. I would like to see what the results of THAT PID is on your truck.
I have updated the list of PIDs and 'CSV' file on my Phaser Monitor screen in this Post:
https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...4/#post5133357
/// I had NO IDEA the PCM would maintain a separate retard setting for each bank. I supposed THAT is how it is able to determine certain things like when the IMRC runners are not working on one bank or the other even though they are linked together with ONE control mechanism. ///
I am still baffled (and concerned) by the reading Torque Pro is producing for your RCAM reading. I have mentioned this before - and I notice in this screenshot the highest value has been 2, lowest Zero.
This value is calculated in the PCM and stored at its PID location (available to OBDII readers - like Torque) and used internally / programmatically in the PCM's 'positive feedback' routines to compare against actual retard readings determined from the CMP sensors. Any discrepancy = CamError.
Understanding the flexibility of Torque (whereby we can modify the equation which stands between the OBDII port output - and the display screen), it seems There HAS TO BE an error in the formula for PID # 16CD (RCAM) whereby we are displaying what amounts to garbage data. The ole (garbage in / garbage out scenario).
Can you verify the formula is essentially ABS(SIGNED(A)*256)+B)/12.8
I say 'essentially' because THAT is what I have in mine right now. However, the phenomenal flexibility of Torque Pro would allow us to place the parentheses in different places to make the ABS trash the decimal differently depending on what we wish to display on gauges. (You know if you are using a Digital gauge display - you can specify number of decimal places ON the gauge settings). But for now I would like to make sure your equation is producing something reasonable from the OBDII data.
** ALSO ** (Credits to @harveje) I have found and determined there is a 'SECOND' Requested Retard signal generated by the PCM for the Cam on Bank 2. !!!! It is at PID # 091C, and the equation is identical to the above. I would like to see what the results of THAT PID is on your truck.
I have updated the list of PIDs and 'CSV' file on my Phaser Monitor screen in this Post:
https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...4/#post5133357
/// I had NO IDEA the PCM would maintain a separate retard setting for each bank. I supposed THAT is how it is able to determine certain things like when the IMRC runners are not working on one bank or the other even though they are linked together with ONE control mechanism. ///
Thank you so much for the update, I am looking forward to trying it out. As to the formula, Yes, I checked it several times. I have spent alot of time programming in C and understand how syntax affects things. I would not think that Ford would have any variation in PID's from vehicle to vehicle so my values being as off from yours as they are really makes me ponder.
If you like, I think I know enough that I may be able to get a capture of raw data from that PID if you would like to examine it.
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 18
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I was leary as well, but I can also tell you the phazers are the update version as well as the tensioners.
Additionally, a little about me, stubborn as a rock, military officer (retired) and the never take no the first time around kinda person. OEM parts better! So say ye, so say we all, BUT! If OEM are so good then why did it fail in the first place? At $122 I can do this .....oh what? 6 or 7 times for the same money?
Do it again you say? Here goes that stubborn **** again. As you guessed I am an old buzzard. Lean over the radiator to do a job like this? Oh hell no! Not happening.....Did I strip the entire front end off my truck, spot welds and all? Yes I did. Was I able to walk up to the flywheel when I was done? Yes I could. Result....Now I can see what the hell I am working on and my back does not pay. Took me about two hours to strip the front as I was being careful and not knowing the route. I could do it in an hour today. Putting it all back....well I did not want to re-weld what I drilled out because I may have reason to be back in there. So I devised a system of counter sunk 1/4 bolts and Bellevue washers to replace the spot welds (worked great!) and she is all back together and looking pretty and running smmmmmmoooooooth!
Long and short of it? I have more time than money. I can afford to redo it if needed, if the reverse was true, I would hire it done and make someone else responsible for it.
Additionally, a little about me, stubborn as a rock, military officer (retired) and the never take no the first time around kinda person. OEM parts better! So say ye, so say we all, BUT! If OEM are so good then why did it fail in the first place? At $122 I can do this .....oh what? 6 or 7 times for the same money?
Do it again you say? Here goes that stubborn **** again. As you guessed I am an old buzzard. Lean over the radiator to do a job like this? Oh hell no! Not happening.....Did I strip the entire front end off my truck, spot welds and all? Yes I did. Was I able to walk up to the flywheel when I was done? Yes I could. Result....Now I can see what the hell I am working on and my back does not pay. Took me about two hours to strip the front as I was being careful and not knowing the route. I could do it in an hour today. Putting it all back....well I did not want to re-weld what I drilled out because I may have reason to be back in there. So I devised a system of counter sunk 1/4 bolts and Bellevue washers to replace the spot welds (worked great!) and she is all back together and looking pretty and running smmmmmmoooooooth!
Long and short of it? I have more time than money. I can afford to redo it if needed, if the reverse was true, I would hire it done and make someone else responsible for it.
The crank pulley correct ? Have to pull the engine to get to the flywheel.
No one wants to do this twice or once for that matter.
I am still planning an attack. Mine is a navigator with $94k
Miles on it. Runs fine the only issue is a loud clatter when
The truck is started after sitting for an hour or more.
I think it is likely the chain bouncing around in there until
The oil pressure comes up. Maybe a broken guide, who knows
Until I open it up.
It's great that the kit worked out for you. I certainly
Will consider it ut I hate the unknowns of the China parts.
At least we have your experience to look at.
Did you buy any tools to do the job ? Cam locks crank lock ?
It seems doable without them but this thread is som long
I haven't had a chance to read the entire thing.
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 18
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Video of engine startup noise
I took a quick video of my 2007 Navigator
Starting up. It makes a fairly bad sound that quickly goes
Away. Interesting that in the video you can see
The engine shake for a moment and then smooth out.
My question is what is the most likely cause of the noise ?
Starting up. It makes a fairly bad sound that quickly goes
Away. Interesting that in the video you can see
The engine shake for a moment and then smooth out.
My question is what is the most likely cause of the noise ?
5 Year Member
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 774
Likes: 64
From: Melbourne, Florida
That definitely sounds like the timing chain rattling against the chain guides. Your tensioner seals are most likely blown and lose tension when the engine is off. You'll want to do the timing job soon.
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 18
Likes: 1
@wrightbenz
be sure to watch the vids from FordTechMacio on this job. He did an excellent job on them and it made the chore easier knowing what was coming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQVK...6h7teRFqY9NxQD
be sure to watch the vids from FordTechMacio on this job. He did an excellent job on them and it made the chore easier knowing what was coming.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQVK...6h7teRFqY9NxQD
I can't quite see a concensus on what chain kit
To use. The coyle kit is mentioned early in the thread.
Then I read that the older ratchet style tensioners
Are better.
Has anyone come up with a best overall option
As far as the parts go ?
Also how hard is it to drop the oil pan on a navigator ?
Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 50
Likes: 6
@wrightbenz
in my humble opinion, if your are going to do this timing job AND drop the pan.....pull the engine. All the current vehicles today have quick connects on almost every thing. Yard that puppy out, get it on a stand an have your way with it.
in my humble opinion, if your are going to do this timing job AND drop the pan.....pull the engine. All the current vehicles today have quick connects on almost every thing. Yard that puppy out, get it on a stand an have your way with it.
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 18
Likes: 1
And it is never what I would call easy.
I would think in this situation there is plenty of room to
Work on the timing gear.
As far as the oil pan goes it may be a bit tricky
But still not worth yanking a motor.
Thanks for the advice though and I do see the
Reasoning.
Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 73
Likes: 3
From: Calgary Albeta
Cam phasers do make noise on tip in, this is normal. Most engine have some sort of noise at idle, I would not be worried if you can only hear it outside beside the engine or in a drive thru.
This repair is done when the noise is "Diesel-ish"
some of these loud tick you hear on the youtube videos... this is not "normal"
and the 5.4 is not suppose to make this noise!!
After the repair, this adresses a few reasons I have seen them tick.
The phasesrs are not aways worn. The phasers and the chains will make noise if the oil pressure is low due to blown seals or the chain is slack causing slap.
You guys know your trucks. obviously take this guide with a grain of salt and diagnose the problem before starting anything, so not to waste yoiu time and money
This repair is done when the noise is "Diesel-ish"
some of these loud tick you hear on the youtube videos... this is not "normal"
and the 5.4 is not suppose to make this noise!!
After the repair, this adresses a few reasons I have seen them tick.
The phasesrs are not aways worn. The phasers and the chains will make noise if the oil pressure is low due to blown seals or the chain is slack causing slap.
You guys know your trucks. obviously take this guide with a grain of salt and diagnose the problem before starting anything, so not to waste yoiu time and money
New to the forum and am just reading through your amazing post.
I think I have this issue with my 07 F150 aswell, though as you state in the above quote "Cam phasers do make noise on tip in, this is normal. Most engine have some sort of noise at idle, I would not be worried if you can only hear it outside beside the engine or in a drive thru."
I only started hearing it when pulling through a drive through or driving against a sound barrier and hearing it vibrate off the wall.
I just want to clarify that this is a normal sounding noise to hear from the phasers?
I have gotten a little paranoid while doing research on the potential problem and fix. but as stated by others they don't here it in their cab or while driving.
Could you clarify what it might sound like if the noise gets really bad??
Thanks. And hopefully I'm not starting up a long-dead threat.
Member
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 50
Likes: 6
hI s.vares-
New to the forum and am just reading through your amazing post.
I think I have this issue with my 07 F150 aswell, though as you state in the above quote "Cam phasers do make noise on tip in, this is normal. Most engine have some sort of noise at idle, I would not be worried if you can only hear it outside beside the engine or in a drive thru."
I only started hearing it when pulling through a drive through or driving against a sound barrier and hearing it vibrate off the wall.
I just want to clarify that this is a normal sounding noise to hear from the phasers?
I have gotten a little paranoid while doing research on the potential problem and fix. but as stated by others they don't here it in their cab or while driving.
Could you clarify what it might sound like if the noise gets really bad??
Thanks. And hopefully I'm not starting up a long-dead threat.
New to the forum and am just reading through your amazing post.
I think I have this issue with my 07 F150 aswell, though as you state in the above quote "Cam phasers do make noise on tip in, this is normal. Most engine have some sort of noise at idle, I would not be worried if you can only hear it outside beside the engine or in a drive thru."
I only started hearing it when pulling through a drive through or driving against a sound barrier and hearing it vibrate off the wall.
I just want to clarify that this is a normal sounding noise to hear from the phasers?
I have gotten a little paranoid while doing research on the potential problem and fix. but as stated by others they don't here it in their cab or while driving.
Could you clarify what it might sound like if the noise gets really bad??
Thanks. And hopefully I'm not starting up a long-dead threat.
check this out:
that is chain guides.....this one is the phaser
Last edited by Keshka; Sep 19, 2017 at 07:58 PM.