The Final Repair Guide to 5.4 Cam Phaser Tick/Knock Sound
01-18-2016, 02:47 PM
#2492
COLLECTED & EDITED TOGETHER FROM MY OTHER POSTS.
In general, all oil pumps that use a 15/16 pickup tube are High volume.
3-Valve engines uses a 15/16” pickup tube
(A standard volume oil pump for a 3-valve engine is High volume)
As standard
2-valve engines came with a 13/16" pump(11mm rotorgear)
4-valve engines came with a 15/16" pump(13mm rotorgear)
3-valve engines came with a 15/16" pump(13mm rotorgear)
Stock 3v oil pump is said to be 60psi
M340 is noted as 60psi
M10340 is a high psi version of the M340 (comes with a extra spring to lower the psi if desired)
M360 is noted as 75psi. (Jasperengines) uses this in there 3valve engines
(Pump list below are 15/16")
9L3Z6600A- OEM
Aluminum backing plate
Stock ford f150 oilpump
SealedPower-224-43663
Uses the M340 image
Stock pump replacement
Melling M340
Cast Iron backing plate
Stock pump replacement
Update 2018/Feb, recently noticed discrepancies on the fitment recommendations of this particular pump.
Melling 10340
A high psi version of the M340
(comes with a extra spring to lower the psi if desired)
Cast Iron backing plate
Melling M360
High PSI
Cast Iron backing plate
2014/March JasperEngines noted that its remanufactured 4.6L/5.4L 3-valve VCT engines uses the M360.
Melling notes in the link below that there M360 will cover as a replacement option for Fords-DR3Z-6600-A
http://www.melling.com/Portals/0/New...360_UPDATE.pdf
Ford SVT DR3Z-6600-A
Ford Racing M-6600-F46
High PSI
Billet Steel alloy backing plate (not cast iron)
Different engines but may learn something from its design.
Ford uses the same oil pumps on the GT500, 5.4/5.8 Shelby, the Aluminator 46X short block.
There using 5w50 full syn oil.
Ford Racing video about their Aluminator 46X short block featuring a Melling M360 oil pump!
www.melling.com/News/News/ID/320/Ford-Racing-video-featuring-Melling-M360
2014/March-JasperEngines posted
http://www.jasperengines.com/blog/fo...il-pump-update
One of the primary issues with Ford’s 4.6L/5.4L 3-valve VVT engine surrounds its Variable Valve Timing system, and the lack of oil pressure which can touch off an engine code.
Since the VVT is driven by oil pressure, any decrease in oil pressure, provided by the engine, can result in a failure.
To combat this issue, JASPER installs a new Melling M360 oil pump on its remanufactured unit.
Randy Bauer-Gas Engine Division Manager of the Jasper, Indiana, Facility.
“The biggest difference is that on a JASPER 3-valve VVT unit, the oil pump utilizes a cast iron backing plate, replacing the aluminum plate found in the OE pump.”
“With the standard OE pump, engine oil starts pouring over the top of the pump at around 2,500 rpm,” said Bauer. “This is caused by pressure buildup inside the pump, making the aluminum backing plate flex; allowing oil to flow over the top.”
“The Melling M360 pump, with the cast iron backing plate, is more rigid,” added Bauer. “The backing plate does not flex until the engine goes beyond 5,500 rpm, which is past the normal operation the engine is going to see.”
“The addition of the Melling M360 pump to our JASPER remanufactured 4.6L/5.4L 3-valve VVT engine provides many advantages to the longevity and performance of the engine,” he said.
"OTHER INFO"
(VCT= variable camshaft timing)
(VVT= variable valve timing)
"Jasper"(JasperEngines) notes in there video that oil bleeds/leaks from between the pump body & engine block, noting a excess @ 2500rpms.
"JDM Engineering" notes that "FORD THEM SELF NOTED" that there is 5% leakage between pumpbody & block.
JDM machines a fordmotorsport oil pump & O-rings it for there performance uses (among other options).
(Steel alloy & cast iron backing plates reduces leakage & cavitation/aeration compared to using a aluminum backing plate)
JDM Engineering & TSS & etc, sells drop-in billet gears if you have concerns of busting the pump gears.
I do believe (but not sure) the Mellings pump come standard with Billet steel rotor gear.
I know Ford uses non-billet (PM-aka-powdered metal) rotor gear but not sure of there performance pumps.
NOTE: I know this isnt the main flaw/issue with our 2005-2010 engine but just part of the system to think about.
.
In general, all oil pumps that use a 15/16 pickup tube are High volume.
3-Valve engines uses a 15/16” pickup tube
(A standard volume oil pump for a 3-valve engine is High volume)
As standard
2-valve engines came with a 13/16" pump(11mm rotorgear)
4-valve engines came with a 15/16" pump(13mm rotorgear)
3-valve engines came with a 15/16" pump(13mm rotorgear)
Stock 3v oil pump is said to be 60psi
M340 is noted as 60psi
M10340 is a high psi version of the M340 (comes with a extra spring to lower the psi if desired)
M360 is noted as 75psi. (Jasperengines) uses this in there 3valve engines
(Pump list below are 15/16")
9L3Z6600A- OEM
Aluminum backing plate
Stock ford f150 oilpump
SealedPower-224-43663
Uses the M340 image
Stock pump replacement
Melling M340
Cast Iron backing plate
Stock pump replacement
Update 2018/Feb, recently noticed discrepancies on the fitment recommendations of this particular pump.
Melling 10340
A high psi version of the M340
(comes with a extra spring to lower the psi if desired)
Cast Iron backing plate
Melling M360
High PSI
Cast Iron backing plate
2014/March JasperEngines noted that its remanufactured 4.6L/5.4L 3-valve VCT engines uses the M360.
Melling notes in the link below that there M360 will cover as a replacement option for Fords-DR3Z-6600-A
http://www.melling.com/Portals/0/New...360_UPDATE.pdf
Ford SVT DR3Z-6600-A
Ford Racing M-6600-F46
High PSI
Billet Steel alloy backing plate (not cast iron)
Different engines but may learn something from its design.
Ford uses the same oil pumps on the GT500, 5.4/5.8 Shelby, the Aluminator 46X short block.
There using 5w50 full syn oil.
Ford Racing video about their Aluminator 46X short block featuring a Melling M360 oil pump!
www.melling.com/News/News/ID/320/Ford-Racing-video-featuring-Melling-M360
Oil Pump Pressure vs. Flow
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IpJlYssvkM
Oil Pump Volume and Pressure Explanation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOiHdIXVWE8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IpJlYssvkM
Oil Pump Volume and Pressure Explanation
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOiHdIXVWE8
2014/March-JasperEngines posted
http://www.jasperengines.com/blog/fo...il-pump-update
One of the primary issues with Ford’s 4.6L/5.4L 3-valve VVT engine surrounds its Variable Valve Timing system, and the lack of oil pressure which can touch off an engine code.
Since the VVT is driven by oil pressure, any decrease in oil pressure, provided by the engine, can result in a failure.
To combat this issue, JASPER installs a new Melling M360 oil pump on its remanufactured unit.
Randy Bauer-Gas Engine Division Manager of the Jasper, Indiana, Facility.
“The biggest difference is that on a JASPER 3-valve VVT unit, the oil pump utilizes a cast iron backing plate, replacing the aluminum plate found in the OE pump.”
“With the standard OE pump, engine oil starts pouring over the top of the pump at around 2,500 rpm,” said Bauer. “This is caused by pressure buildup inside the pump, making the aluminum backing plate flex; allowing oil to flow over the top.”
“The Melling M360 pump, with the cast iron backing plate, is more rigid,” added Bauer. “The backing plate does not flex until the engine goes beyond 5,500 rpm, which is past the normal operation the engine is going to see.”
“The addition of the Melling M360 pump to our JASPER remanufactured 4.6L/5.4L 3-valve VVT engine provides many advantages to the longevity and performance of the engine,” he said.
"OTHER INFO"
(VCT= variable camshaft timing)
(VVT= variable valve timing)
"Jasper"(JasperEngines) notes in there video that oil bleeds/leaks from between the pump body & engine block, noting a excess @ 2500rpms.
"JDM Engineering" notes that "FORD THEM SELF NOTED" that there is 5% leakage between pumpbody & block.
JDM machines a fordmotorsport oil pump & O-rings it for there performance uses (among other options).
(Steel alloy & cast iron backing plates reduces leakage & cavitation/aeration compared to using a aluminum backing plate)
JDM Engineering & TSS & etc, sells drop-in billet gears if you have concerns of busting the pump gears.
I do believe (but not sure) the Mellings pump come standard with Billet steel rotor gear.
I know Ford uses non-billet (PM-aka-powdered metal) rotor gear but not sure of there performance pumps.
NOTE: I know this isnt the main flaw/issue with our 2005-2010 engine but just part of the system to think about.
.
Last edited by Fordjunkync; 02-15-2018 at 04:28 PM.
01-18-2016, 02:47 PM
#2493
Yes that's exactly the 'chain tensioner arms' I've been considering. But still gathering information along with SS paychecks to pay for all this $@#_%#*!. As you point out this choice still leaves you with the two plastic chain guides. Actually - from reading the forums - I'm not sure the fixed chain guides aren't the ones more prone to breakage than the tensioner arms. Seems ODD that the tensioner arms are all that MMR seems to offer for the 5.4L in metal. Not sure where to get the 'chain guides' in metal.
I don't think there are any made out of metal. At least not that I've found in a couple days of searching. What's even more confusing is that MMR calls their parts "Chain Guides" but when you look up the plastic part (F85Z-6M274-AA) it's actually called a tensioner. Honestly, for $259 they should include the plastic part too. I am going to have everything done the first week of Feb, so I'll be able to let you know about some things before you have to do yours.
Yes, that is the tensioner I am going with. I tend to like the 'ratchet' concept of this tensioner to maintain roughly constant tension on the chains under low oil pressure (cranking) condition. Some guys have reported here that they observe points where chains become slightly slack when rotating their engine after completing timing jobs. This makes sense to me that the reverse torque that valve springs/roller followers exert on the camshafts must be fairly sugnificant. When startup oil pressure builds - seems it would lessen shock of slapping pressure on the tensioner arm & chain. ???? I dunno.
Honestly I thought the Melling 10340 was the high volume pump for my '04 5.4L. Not familiar with m360 - YET. I'll cure that!
On MY budget - I'd be for doing a BUNCH more diagnostics first. If I didn't know mine needed attention (By being able to RELIABLY create a P0022 DTC code under repeatable conditions), I'd keep right on going down the road.
01-18-2016, 05:44 PM
#2494
Why is it now pinging
Have a 2004 5.4 with 108k miles on it. Did the phasers, solenoids, chain, guides, tensioners, and upgraded to a 360 oil pump. Had a shop do it and they got the timing wrong. Retimed it, truck runs smooth and accelerates great. No check engine lights. Only bad thing is it now pings under a load and it did not previously. Tried changing gas to 91 with no luck. Tried seam foam and no luck yet, still on the sea foam tank of gas. I am about 95% sure it is a ping. I am guessing it could be something else but it is load specific, not RPM, and it behaves just like a ping. I have had it start in one gear, the truck will down shift and the sound stays the same through the gears. Most noticeable on the highway going up and down hills at about 70 MPH. At first thought it may be gas since it set since October but I have now been through a couple tanks of gas. I know some say an occasional ping is ok but this seems pretty frequent and noticeable to me. Once again no check engine codes and idles smooth. Revs up and idles back down smooth. I would think if the timing was off or a knock sensor was bad, I would be getting a check engine code. Not to mention rough idle and power lose. Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
Edit: No mods, plugs changed at 85k, all coils at 101k.
Edit: No mods, plugs changed at 85k, all coils at 101k.
Last edited by docsprague; 01-18-2016 at 06:06 PM.
01-18-2016, 06:35 PM
#2495
LightningRod
@Macville , the budget (already about busted) dictates it will probably be the first, less expensive one - http://www.modularmotorsportsracing....roducts_id=495 . Beside I should not be racing much more at my age! lol
@Fordjunkync - thank you for the detailed, condensed, helpful info. It was definitely helpful as well as the videos.
@Fordjunkync - thank you for the detailed, condensed, helpful info. It was definitely helpful as well as the videos.
01-18-2016, 07:20 PM
#2496
No problem, Ive been wanting to gather/collect it back up (pump wise) & save it in a word file but I didnt take the time. I know it was more than what you where asking but figured it may help others thats focusing on trying this job. This tread moves to fast & the data gets left behind.
I still have info I want to read of yours but haven't took the time & to be in the right mind frame to try & comprehend, my back blew out last year & so Im a year behind on everything LoL.
.
I still have info I want to read of yours but haven't took the time & to be in the right mind frame to try & comprehend, my back blew out last year & so Im a year behind on everything LoL.
.
01-18-2016, 08:10 PM
#2497
@Macville , the budget (already about busted) dictates it will probably be the first, less expensive one - http://www.modularmotorsportsracing....roducts_id=495 . Beside I should not be racing much more at my age! lol
01-18-2016, 08:35 PM
#2498
Just noting,
MMR wise
I ran across a couple of threads where people were having oil pump failures on performance mustang applications using MMR Cryo treated rotor gear pumps a few years ago. etc
Just noting in case someone may be interested in researching further in there purchasing of what ever.
.
MMR wise
I ran across a couple of threads where people were having oil pump failures on performance mustang applications using MMR Cryo treated rotor gear pumps a few years ago. etc
Just noting in case someone may be interested in researching further in there purchasing of what ever.
.
Last edited by Fordjunkync; 01-18-2016 at 08:49 PM.
01-18-2016, 09:51 PM
#2499
Member
01-18-2016, 10:18 PM
#2500