The Final Repair Guide to 5.4 Cam Phaser Tick/Knock Sound
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Joined: Mar 2015
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So after taking my truck in the other day, for what seemed to be issues with the VCT’s (rough idle when coming down under 1000 rpm), my mechanic told me I needed a new engine. However, I talked to another mechanic and am going to move forward with trying to repair the engine. At under $2000 for parts and labor it seems far better on a motor I don’t really think is damaged vs $8100 for a new one. But I have a few questions about the parts I need to buy and everything I should replace.
This all is for a 2008 F150 5.4L V3.
This was the timing/cam phaser kit I was going to buy (Amazon.com: Ford 5.4L 3V Camshaft Drive Phaser Repair Kit - Phaser Sprockets, Tensioners, Guides, Chains Kit: Automotive). It's the OEM Ford kit and $843 is the cheapest I have found it anywhere (someone let me know if they’ve seen it cheaper elsewhere.) From what I’ve seen throughout this thread, this is best quality kit to buy. But I want to confirm this is the best kit to buy as many other brands are 1/3 the price and I didn’t want to miss a kit that was is as good as the Ford but cheaper (wishful thinking.)
Edit: It appears it would also be good to get the iron cam chain tensioners. However, my googling for 5.4l v2 cam chain tensioners shows after market parts, but I can't find a Ford number for the part.
Going to replace the VCT's (which seems to be the issue, but I kinda hate to have my mechanic rip the valve covers off and then put it back together only to find out it’s more than just the VCT’s) with these (Amazon.com: 5.4L 3V VCT Control Solenoid 8L3Z-6M280-B - Genuine Ford OEM: Automotive) From everything I’ve seen, the VCT’s are the same on all model years, it’s just the process of getting to them is different depending on the engine year.
I know the VCT seals need to be replaced, but is 3L3Z-6C535-AA the correct part number for it? The videos I found are for pre 2007 engines, so I wasn’t sure if the seals are still the same on 2007 and later engines?
As for the valve cover gaskets, I am having issues finding out the Ford part number. Does anyone know what it is? When I search for vale gaskets I am getting mixed info on what actually fits my truck.
Going to replace the oil pump too since the Jasper video shows the huge flaw with the aluminum backing plate. Does anyone know if there are any oil pumps out there that have a steel or iron backing plate instead of the aluminum one? Is there any reason to not replace it? Jasper says one of the issues with this engine is that it’s starved for oil, so I want to make sure I get a pump (and backing plate) that delivers all the oil the engine could ever want. Edit: Just found the page where someone lists the different Melling pumps (https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...2/#post4168858) So should I get the M360 or get the high PSI version which is 10340?
Should I do the Motorcraft or Champion spark plugs? It sounds like from my research that if the Motorcraft plugs are appropriately coated in anti-sieze there should not be an issue with getting them out again in the future. However, I just want to make sure that they are not going to have any issues like the original ones had with breaking.
What I haven’t decided on is doing cam lockouts or not. From what I can find online, when searching for pros and cons of the lockouts, you loose some power and a little MPG, plus diesel engine noise! The noise doesn’t really bother me though. I am most concern with making sure the engine runs well and doesn’t get worn out. I’d rather not do the lockouts if I don’t have to, but if I don’t will the cam phasers just wear out in 30,000 miles again, or will it just mainly be the noise that I have to deal with?
These are the camlocks I am looking at (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Set-of-CNC-Billet-Aluminum-Ford-4-6-5-4L-3-Valve-Cam-Phaser-Lockouts-/301847058745?hash=item46477c9939:g:msoAAOxyMZVTkJ~ K&vxp=mtr) So the question I have is, what kind of power do I really lose in my truck if I use them? Most of my miles are interstate with a payload of 500-800lbs of gear between the backseat and bed. Sometimes I am also hauling a 3100lb trailer in addition to the payload. I do drive it maybe a couple of time a week in town, about 20 miles max roundtrip. Let’s put it this way, since I bought the truck two years ago I’ve put about 6k a year on it, mainly interstate. So if I do lockouts, am I really going to be affected by them with the kind of driving I do? Also, if I buy those off ebay, does anyone know how much the tune is for it? I see SCT programmers on ebay for $300, but I think I still have to have a custom tune to make the phasers work correctly with the lockouts. Not totally sure how that works (but I am learning!)
Thanks so much for any help you all can give me to get my truck back working at 100%
This all is for a 2008 F150 5.4L V3.
This was the timing/cam phaser kit I was going to buy (Amazon.com: Ford 5.4L 3V Camshaft Drive Phaser Repair Kit - Phaser Sprockets, Tensioners, Guides, Chains Kit: Automotive). It's the OEM Ford kit and $843 is the cheapest I have found it anywhere (someone let me know if they’ve seen it cheaper elsewhere.) From what I’ve seen throughout this thread, this is best quality kit to buy. But I want to confirm this is the best kit to buy as many other brands are 1/3 the price and I didn’t want to miss a kit that was is as good as the Ford but cheaper (wishful thinking.)
Edit: It appears it would also be good to get the iron cam chain tensioners. However, my googling for 5.4l v2 cam chain tensioners shows after market parts, but I can't find a Ford number for the part.
Going to replace the VCT's (which seems to be the issue, but I kinda hate to have my mechanic rip the valve covers off and then put it back together only to find out it’s more than just the VCT’s) with these (Amazon.com: 5.4L 3V VCT Control Solenoid 8L3Z-6M280-B - Genuine Ford OEM: Automotive) From everything I’ve seen, the VCT’s are the same on all model years, it’s just the process of getting to them is different depending on the engine year.
I know the VCT seals need to be replaced, but is 3L3Z-6C535-AA the correct part number for it? The videos I found are for pre 2007 engines, so I wasn’t sure if the seals are still the same on 2007 and later engines?
As for the valve cover gaskets, I am having issues finding out the Ford part number. Does anyone know what it is? When I search for vale gaskets I am getting mixed info on what actually fits my truck.
Going to replace the oil pump too since the Jasper video shows the huge flaw with the aluminum backing plate. Does anyone know if there are any oil pumps out there that have a steel or iron backing plate instead of the aluminum one? Is there any reason to not replace it? Jasper says one of the issues with this engine is that it’s starved for oil, so I want to make sure I get a pump (and backing plate) that delivers all the oil the engine could ever want. Edit: Just found the page where someone lists the different Melling pumps (https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...2/#post4168858) So should I get the M360 or get the high PSI version which is 10340?
Should I do the Motorcraft or Champion spark plugs? It sounds like from my research that if the Motorcraft plugs are appropriately coated in anti-sieze there should not be an issue with getting them out again in the future. However, I just want to make sure that they are not going to have any issues like the original ones had with breaking.
What I haven’t decided on is doing cam lockouts or not. From what I can find online, when searching for pros and cons of the lockouts, you loose some power and a little MPG, plus diesel engine noise! The noise doesn’t really bother me though. I am most concern with making sure the engine runs well and doesn’t get worn out. I’d rather not do the lockouts if I don’t have to, but if I don’t will the cam phasers just wear out in 30,000 miles again, or will it just mainly be the noise that I have to deal with?
These are the camlocks I am looking at (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Set-of-CNC-Billet-Aluminum-Ford-4-6-5-4L-3-Valve-Cam-Phaser-Lockouts-/301847058745?hash=item46477c9939:g:msoAAOxyMZVTkJ~ K&vxp=mtr) So the question I have is, what kind of power do I really lose in my truck if I use them? Most of my miles are interstate with a payload of 500-800lbs of gear between the backseat and bed. Sometimes I am also hauling a 3100lb trailer in addition to the payload. I do drive it maybe a couple of time a week in town, about 20 miles max roundtrip. Let’s put it this way, since I bought the truck two years ago I’ve put about 6k a year on it, mainly interstate. So if I do lockouts, am I really going to be affected by them with the kind of driving I do? Also, if I buy those off ebay, does anyone know how much the tune is for it? I see SCT programmers on ebay for $300, but I think I still have to have a custom tune to make the phasers work correctly with the lockouts. Not totally sure how that works (but I am learning!)
Thanks so much for any help you all can give me to get my truck back working at 100%
This thread is for people who want to fix their engine themselves. You don't just buy these parts, give them to somebody and hope it works out. My opinion on the oil pump is that it is hype; the stock pump is a good reliable unit and I don't know of any great success stories of upgrading the pump. A custom tune with lockouts would be better than a canned tune, however the general rule is that you get your vehicle running well stock before you start tweaking it. The solenoids come with seals installed, the valve cover gaskets are reusable try rockauto if you want new ones. If you want your truck to be 100% buy new with a warranty, there are no guarantees here.
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 874
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From: Corpus Christi
Didn't know there was a restriction on who can post in this thread especially when they have pertinent and on topic questions. Oh right, there isnt.
Member
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 94
Likes: 9
From: Northern Illinois
If you have installed lockouts - the solenoids have nothing to do with anything anymore. All they are designed to do is modulate oil flow between the retard chambers and advance chambers in the phasers. The lockouts now prevent the phaser vanes from moving no matter which chambers oil pressure is directed to. Plus, I suspect (though IDK for sure), the livernois tune probably defeats operation of the solenoids as well as killing certain DTCs associated with phaser non-operation. In the same context, IMO new phasers is a useless waste of money if you install lockouts and defeat their designed advance/retard movement. That of course wouldn't apply if the phaser teeth are all worn off but I've never heard of that.
I believe the infamous "tick" is comming from slack between a lash adjuster and follower. The cause of the slack could be comming from either - though I believe a "sticky" lash adjuster is the more likely source. They bleed down under valve spring pressure while engine is off, and oil pressure in the heads is less than in the low end. If they are 'sticky' they will tick because they don't pump up and remove the clearance between the follower and its cam lobe or the valve stem.
Multiple, repeated, extreem engine flush exercises has quieted the "tick" on my '04 5.4L two times. It has had the "tick", off and on, all its 211k mile life. I ordered Kreen from KANO Laboratories (expensive as hell - but has many good refs). I ran a quart for about 500 miles, change oil/filter with cheap stuff - run another quart of Kreen for another 500 miles - then drained & put in good synthetic oil and Motorcraft filter.
This has stopped the tick for me twice. It might be worth trying.
I believe the infamous "tick" is comming from slack between a lash adjuster and follower. The cause of the slack could be comming from either - though I believe a "sticky" lash adjuster is the more likely source. They bleed down under valve spring pressure while engine is off, and oil pressure in the heads is less than in the low end. If they are 'sticky' they will tick because they don't pump up and remove the clearance between the follower and its cam lobe or the valve stem.
Multiple, repeated, extreem engine flush exercises has quieted the "tick" on my '04 5.4L two times. It has had the "tick", off and on, all its 211k mile life. I ordered Kreen from KANO Laboratories (expensive as hell - but has many good refs). I ran a quart for about 500 miles, change oil/filter with cheap stuff - run another quart of Kreen for another 500 miles - then drained & put in good synthetic oil and Motorcraft filter.
This has stopped the tick for me twice. It might be worth trying.
LightningRod
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,412
Likes: 651
From: San Antonio Texas
Wow @Macville - you're just full of questions. Lol
I'm far from best qualified to answer all them.
No 1st hand experience (JUST YET). But I'm shopping and accumulating parts for the job too, so I'll give a good ole college try and watch all other responses with great interest.
I think that is a good choice and as cheap as I've found for its completeness. I opted for a Cloyes C391 chain with crank gear set and Phasers from Freedom Ford (through Ebay) because I'm looking to use metal guides and tensioners. With gaskets and other stuff is going to cost me more.
See the following post - this thread:
https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...8/#post4321960
The part number suffix "-B" is the updated one and yes, same for all year models.
Mine is an '04 and I KNOW mine are different from later models. I have to defer to someone with more relevant knowledge.
Same as above.
I think the aluminum backing plate flex thing is a bunch of hype. IMHO the more important consideration is total mileage on your vehicle and oil pressure readings - NOT AT IDLE - but the ratio of pressure increase to rpm increase which gives some better indication of health of bearing surfaces. Having said that, I ALSO plan to replace my oil pump with the 10340 - reason: slight degradation in pressure is more likely from volume loss in the bearing surfaces, not from wear in the stock gearator pump.
Motorcraft.
Don't do it. If you're going to this much trouble you can fix it right. There is zero difference in labor and you might as well preserve the "modern day" functional design of your motor. I can tell you from personal experience of monitoring cam phaser OBDII signals on my truck under MANY driving conditions: Our trucks apply some degree of retard to the cam phasers under a HUDGE percentage of "normal" driving conditions. (If you like, I can provide the OBDII PIDs for these signals) The ECU applies FULL ADVANCE only under a small percentage of our driving situations - ie: freeway entrance / passing / pulling a trailer uphill / higher rpms / higher torque situations. That's where the lockouts force the cams, to FULL ADVANCE. This also defeats the EGR effect of retarding exhaust valves. This cools combustion temperatures and reduces NOx emissions, and requires less fuel, thus other emissions. If you haven't noticed - I'm not in favor of lockouts.
I'm far from best qualified to answer all them.
No 1st hand experience (JUST YET). But I'm shopping and accumulating parts for the job too, so I'll give a good ole college try and watch all other responses with great interest. https://www.f150forum.com/f4/final-r...8/#post4321960
Same as above.
Motorcraft.
Don't do it. If you're going to this much trouble you can fix it right. There is zero difference in labor and you might as well preserve the "modern day" functional design of your motor. I can tell you from personal experience of monitoring cam phaser OBDII signals on my truck under MANY driving conditions: Our trucks apply some degree of retard to the cam phasers under a HUDGE percentage of "normal" driving conditions. (If you like, I can provide the OBDII PIDs for these signals) The ECU applies FULL ADVANCE only under a small percentage of our driving situations - ie: freeway entrance / passing / pulling a trailer uphill / higher rpms / higher torque situations. That's where the lockouts force the cams, to FULL ADVANCE. This also defeats the EGR effect of retarding exhaust valves. This cools combustion temperatures and reduces NOx emissions, and requires less fuel, thus other emissions. If you haven't noticed - I'm not in favor of lockouts.
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Joined: Jan 2016
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I think that is a good choice and as cheap as I've found for its completeness. I opted for a Cloyes C391 chain with crank gear set and Phasers from Freedom Ford (through Ebay) because I'm looking to use metal guides and tensioners. With gaskets and other stuff is going to cost me more.
Has anyone tried the MMR 5.4 3V Metal Chain guides? (http://www.modularmotorsportsracing....roducts_id=609) It's 5x the price ($259 vs about $50) Plus, you still have the other two guides as plastic, so I am not sure it helps as much as it could because the other two plastic arms could still break (which don't seem to come with the kit for some strange reason considering the 4.6 version has all 4 parts for the chain guide.)
Is the MMR the one you are looking at?
I was also looking at the upgraded MMR tensioners (http://www.modularmotorsportsracing....roducts_id=457) but at almost 2x the price and the only difference appears to be the machined channel for an o-ring I am not sure it's really worth the money. It also mentioned modified valving for consistent chain tension, but not sure how necessary that really is.
0I think the aluminum backing plate flex thing is a bunch of hype. IMHO the more important consideration is total mileage on your vehicle and oil pressure readings - NOT AT IDLE - but the ratio of pressure increase to rpm increase which gives some better indication of health of bearing surfaces. Having said that, I ALSO plan to replace my oil pump with the 10340 - reason: slight degradation in pressure is more likely from volume loss in the bearing surfaces, not from wear in the stock gearator pump.
Don't do it. If you're going to this much trouble you can fix it right. There is zero difference in labor and you might as well preserve the "modern day" functional design of your motor.
Member
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 94
Likes: 9
From: Northern Illinois
I was just getting ready to post this when you replied:
Has anyone tried the MMR 5.4 3V Metal Chain guides? (http://www.modularmotorsportsracing....roducts_id=609) It's 5x the price ($259 vs about $50) Plus, you still have the other two guides as plastic, so I am not sure it helps as much as it could because the other two plastic arms could still break (which don't seem to come with the kit for some strange reason considering the 4.6 version has all 4 parts for the chain guide.)
Is the MMR the one you are looking at?
I was also looking at the upgraded MMR tensioners (http://www.modularmotorsportsracing....roducts_id=457) but at almost 2x the price and the only difference appears to be the machined channel for an o-ring I am not sure it's really worth the money. It also mentioned modified valving for consistent chain tension, but not sure how necessary that really is.
Why the 10340 and not the m360 pump? I would maybe agree about the plate, but that's one of the things my mechanic mentioned about the upgraded jasper motor he was going to stick in. Jasper evidently won't even warranty the engine unless you put in a new designed oil pump. So they are pretty concerned that it is a big issue.
I am leaning towards no lockouts because after my research, with new designed phasers, new and better oil pump, and the all metal tensioners, the phasers should last much longer. I am not even sure my phasers are really even bad. My main issue seems to be the VCT's but if I am going to have the valve covers ripped off I might as well get everything nice and new.
Has anyone tried the MMR 5.4 3V Metal Chain guides? (http://www.modularmotorsportsracing....roducts_id=609) It's 5x the price ($259 vs about $50) Plus, you still have the other two guides as plastic, so I am not sure it helps as much as it could because the other two plastic arms could still break (which don't seem to come with the kit for some strange reason considering the 4.6 version has all 4 parts for the chain guide.)
Is the MMR the one you are looking at?
I was also looking at the upgraded MMR tensioners (http://www.modularmotorsportsracing....roducts_id=457) but at almost 2x the price and the only difference appears to be the machined channel for an o-ring I am not sure it's really worth the money. It also mentioned modified valving for consistent chain tension, but not sure how necessary that really is.
Why the 10340 and not the m360 pump? I would maybe agree about the plate, but that's one of the things my mechanic mentioned about the upgraded jasper motor he was going to stick in. Jasper evidently won't even warranty the engine unless you put in a new designed oil pump. So they are pretty concerned that it is a big issue.
I am leaning towards no lockouts because after my research, with new designed phasers, new and better oil pump, and the all metal tensioners, the phasers should last much longer. I am not even sure my phasers are really even bad. My main issue seems to be the VCT's but if I am going to have the valve covers ripped off I might as well get everything nice and new.
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Joined: Jan 2016
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Mine is a '08, so I have to take the valve covers to get to the VCT's, otherwise I would totally just start with the VCT's. Since it's a pain to get them off, I figure might as well make everything fresh as possible.
Member
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 94
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From: Northern Illinois
Right on. I didn't see anywhere that your's is an 08, and to be honest I didnt know that you had to remove the covers to change the VCT's ????
LightningRod
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,412
Likes: 651
From: San Antonio Texas
Yes that's exactly the 'chain tensioner arms' I've been considering. But still gathering information along with SS paychecks to pay for all this $@#_%#*!. As you point out this choice still leaves you with the two plastic chain guides. Actually - from reading the forums - I'm not sure the fixed chain guides aren't the ones more prone to breakage than the tensioner arms. Seems ODD that the tensioner arms are all that MMR seems to offer for the 5.4L in metal. Not sure where to get the 'chain guides' in metal.
Yes, that is the tensioner I am going with. I tend to like the 'ratchet' concept of this tensioner to maintain roughly constant tension on the chains under low oil pressure (cranking) condition. Some guys have reported here that they observe points where chains become slightly slack when rotating their engine after completing timing jobs. This makes sense to me that the reverse torque that valve springs/roller followers exert on the camshafts must be fairly sugnificant. When startup oil pressure builds - seems it would lessen shock of slapping pressure on the tensioner arm & chain. ???? I dunno.
Honestly I thought the Melling 10340 was the high volume pump for my '04 5.4L. Not familiar with m360 - YET. I'll cure that!
On MY budget - I'd be for doing a BUNCH more diagnostics first. If I didn't know mine needed attention (By being able to RELIABLY create a P0022 DTC code under repeatable conditions), I'd keep right on going down the road.
Honestly I thought the Melling 10340 was the high volume pump for my '04 5.4L. Not familiar with m360 - YET. I'll cure that!
On MY budget - I'd be for doing a BUNCH more diagnostics first. If I didn't know mine needed attention (By being able to RELIABLY create a P0022 DTC code under repeatable conditions), I'd keep right on going down the road.