The Final Repair Guide to 5.4 Cam Phaser Tick/Knock Sound
A dude playing a dude
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 16,813
Likes: 2,065
From: Germany
^^ Try that. You'll get a full set to swap them out one at a time and try to solve your problem.
People on this forum give those coils **** all the time and I don't know why. I've had that set in my truck ever since I did the plugs two years ago and never once had a problem with them.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 17
Likes: 1
Final Repair AND Lockouts only way to go.
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/...epair-Kit.html
We sell between 200-300 of these kits per month on average. We have dealerships, engine rebuilding facilities, and even the large retail auto parts chain stores now are selling them as well. It is definitely money well spent in my opinion.
THANKS to S_Vares for the Start!
If your truck is in good shape like mine, the complete repair as dictated in the beginning of this thread is the way to go. I also bought the Livernois kit. It is the ONLY answer for the phasers. (No, I don't work for them)
Some here are giving Livernois crap because they plug their product so much. Or that the lockouts depreciate the performance.
After completely replacing the timing kit, lockouts and the spark plugs, this truck runs like brand new. If anyone thinks they can tell the difference in how the truck runs, as opposed to those who install new phasers, they must have caterpillar fuzz on their butt. The truck takes off with great power and no longer sounds like a diesel when I pick up my coffee at McD's drive thru window.
If you are handy with some mechanic tools; can follow directions, then you can complete this!
I had 2 issues... Both my fault
First, I had the timing off. MAKE SURE you time it before you reinstall. Be patient, take out the plugs and get the motor to TDC. Using the Ford timing tool, set it exact. Line up the colored chain marks and you're fine.
Second, when taking the driver side valve cover off, I, (and many others evidently) knocked the brake vacuum hose off the inlet of the intake manifold. And Ford tucked that bitch where getting it back on would make a preacher cuss.
That hose will give you the "lean" codes and cause you not to have power-assisted brakes. Follow the TSB and get at it by removing the driveshaft and the shifter cable. (which my cable was going to be bad from rubbing on the hot exhaust... glad I found it then). You can reach up and reattach the hose fairly easy.
Good luck to you and again thanks to all who post the advice!!
We sell between 200-300 of these kits per month on average. We have dealerships, engine rebuilding facilities, and even the large retail auto parts chain stores now are selling them as well. It is definitely money well spent in my opinion.
THANKS to S_Vares for the Start!
If your truck is in good shape like mine, the complete repair as dictated in the beginning of this thread is the way to go. I also bought the Livernois kit. It is the ONLY answer for the phasers. (No, I don't work for them)
Some here are giving Livernois crap because they plug their product so much. Or that the lockouts depreciate the performance.
After completely replacing the timing kit, lockouts and the spark plugs, this truck runs like brand new. If anyone thinks they can tell the difference in how the truck runs, as opposed to those who install new phasers, they must have caterpillar fuzz on their butt. The truck takes off with great power and no longer sounds like a diesel when I pick up my coffee at McD's drive thru window.
If you are handy with some mechanic tools; can follow directions, then you can complete this!
I had 2 issues... Both my fault
First, I had the timing off. MAKE SURE you time it before you reinstall. Be patient, take out the plugs and get the motor to TDC. Using the Ford timing tool, set it exact. Line up the colored chain marks and you're fine.
Second, when taking the driver side valve cover off, I, (and many others evidently) knocked the brake vacuum hose off the inlet of the intake manifold. And Ford tucked that bitch where getting it back on would make a preacher cuss.
That hose will give you the "lean" codes and cause you not to have power-assisted brakes. Follow the TSB and get at it by removing the driveshaft and the shifter cable. (which my cable was going to be bad from rubbing on the hot exhaust... glad I found it then). You can reach up and reattach the hose fairly easy.
Good luck to you and again thanks to all who post the advice!!
LightningRod
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,412
Likes: 651
From: San Antonio Texas
This proves you have no clue what the benefits of Variable Valve Timing actually are, or under what operating conditions valve timing retard is beneficial.
It ain't when the truck "takes off". And it ain't when your pulling your boat out of the lake, or at higher RPMs or passing in second gear. Therefore there is ZERO difference in the power (or the feel) at any of those points whether you have lockouts or phasers.
It is, however, all the mid range driving conditions and light load power situations that you've sacrificed efficiency. That, by the way, constitutes 99% of your driving where you wouldn't ever "FEEL" the difference between accelerator depression of 12% or 15%. BUT YOUR ENGINE does - in combustion efficiency, combustion temperatures, emissions, mgs, and low rpm lugging torque.
It ain't when the truck "takes off". And it ain't when your pulling your boat out of the lake, or at higher RPMs or passing in second gear. Therefore there is ZERO difference in the power (or the feel) at any of those points whether you have lockouts or phasers.
It is, however, all the mid range driving conditions and light load power situations that you've sacrificed efficiency. That, by the way, constitutes 99% of your driving where you wouldn't ever "FEEL" the difference between accelerator depression of 12% or 15%. BUT YOUR ENGINE does - in combustion efficiency, combustion temperatures, emissions, mgs, and low rpm lugging torque.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 305
Likes: 37
From: Arizona
It proves something else...
This proves you have no clue what the benefits of Variable Valve Timing actually are, or under what operating conditions valve timing retard is beneficial.
It ain't when the truck "takes off". And it ain't when your pulling your boat out of the lake, or at higher RPMs or passing in second gear. Therefore there is ZERO difference in the power (or the feel) at any of those points whether you have lockouts or phasers.
It is, however, all the mid range driving conditions and light load power situations that you've sacrificed efficiency. That, by the way, constitutes 99% of your driving where you wouldn't ever "FEEL" the difference between accelerator depression of 12% or 15%. BUT YOUR ENGINE does - in combustion efficiency, combustion temperatures, emissions, mgs, and low rpm lugging torque.
It ain't when the truck "takes off". And it ain't when your pulling your boat out of the lake, or at higher RPMs or passing in second gear. Therefore there is ZERO difference in the power (or the feel) at any of those points whether you have lockouts or phasers.
It is, however, all the mid range driving conditions and light load power situations that you've sacrificed efficiency. That, by the way, constitutes 99% of your driving where you wouldn't ever "FEEL" the difference between accelerator depression of 12% or 15%. BUT YOUR ENGINE does - in combustion efficiency, combustion temperatures, emissions, mgs, and low rpm lugging torque.
It also proves that Ford's design is one gigantic P.O.S. I find Ford's decision to slap an additional valve & VVT onto an existing design analogous to GM's decision to try to make a small-block V8 a MF'ing diesel. (It would seem that Ford has things right now with the Coyote.)
This modular engine was ORIGINALLY DESIGNED to be a non-VVT engine with EGR ... so the lockouts primarily put the 5.4 3V on a more level playing field with the 2V (and the Livernois ECU update handles some of the timing adjustments required to make sure the powerband is minimally affected). Consequently, the only item from your itemization I give any credence to is emissions. I am sure the 5.4 3V with the lockouts produces (slightly) more emissions than does its stock counterpart.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 17
Likes: 1
Really??
This proves you have no clue what the benefits of Variable Valve Timing actually are, or under what operating conditions valve timing retard is beneficial.
FIRST, It is astounding how people like yourself take a comment from here and draw such a demeaning response. I researched the idea behind the 5.4 VCT engineering; Both advantages and it's disadvantages. I'm sure there's more for me to learn to catch up with a person of magnanimous expertise, such as yourself.
It ain't when the truck "takes off". And it ain't when your pulling your boat out of the lake, or at higher RPMs or passing in second gear. Therefore there is ZERO difference in the power (or the feel) at any of those points whether you have lockouts or phasers.
My comment about "takes off" was meant in general... I do know that there were sacrifices made when locking out the phasers. My point was, The truck doesn't run noticeably different. What I sacrificed in fuel efficiency, emissions, mgs, and low rpm lugging torque... I will give up in return for an engine I know will be mechanically more sound.
A couple of dozens of articles I read about Ford's VCT engines can be found here: http://www.expertswrite.net/tech/31-...-ford-vvt.html
(Perhaps F150torqued wrote it??).... OR:
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...-valve-timing/
It is, however, all the mid range driving conditions and light load power situations that you've sacrificed efficiency. That, by the way, constitutes 99% of your driving where you wouldn't ever "FEEL" the difference between accelerator depression of 12% or 15%. BUT YOUR ENGINE does - in combustion efficiency, combustion temperatures, emissions, mgs, and low rpm lugging torque.
FIRST, It is astounding how people like yourself take a comment from here and draw such a demeaning response. I researched the idea behind the 5.4 VCT engineering; Both advantages and it's disadvantages. I'm sure there's more for me to learn to catch up with a person of magnanimous expertise, such as yourself.
It ain't when the truck "takes off". And it ain't when your pulling your boat out of the lake, or at higher RPMs or passing in second gear. Therefore there is ZERO difference in the power (or the feel) at any of those points whether you have lockouts or phasers.
My comment about "takes off" was meant in general... I do know that there were sacrifices made when locking out the phasers. My point was, The truck doesn't run noticeably different. What I sacrificed in fuel efficiency, emissions, mgs, and low rpm lugging torque... I will give up in return for an engine I know will be mechanically more sound.
A couple of dozens of articles I read about Ford's VCT engines can be found here: http://www.expertswrite.net/tech/31-...-ford-vvt.html
(Perhaps F150torqued wrote it??).... OR:
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...-valve-timing/
It is, however, all the mid range driving conditions and light load power situations that you've sacrificed efficiency. That, by the way, constitutes 99% of your driving where you wouldn't ever "FEEL" the difference between accelerator depression of 12% or 15%. BUT YOUR ENGINE does - in combustion efficiency, combustion temperatures, emissions, mgs, and low rpm lugging torque.
• Up to a 7 percent improvement in peak power and a 5 percent improvement in lowspeed torque for better acceleration, passing and merging performance.
• Up to a 4.5 percent improvement in fuel economy.
And minor emissions advantages.
So I'm ok with my engine knowing all this.
I'm just a backyard mechanic who enjoys learning and turning wrenches to save money and enjoy my rides.
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 423
Likes: 48
Well said and backed up, dougiefresh. The forums are for people to learn. Some people forget they have been in forums for so long and they want to think they know everything that when someone new comes along trying to learn, they do what you said and leave demeaning remarks.
LightningRod
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,412
Likes: 651
From: San Antonio Texas
Hum. Judging from the two articles you linked, guess I was wrong about your understanding of the benefits of variable valve timing. The first of which begins:
------- Quoting
["The Ford 5.4L Triton 3 valve engine is a wonderful masterpiece that many hate and do not understand. Many are confused about the rattling sounds they hear on light acceleration and many people have been told it is the phasers. What is a phaser?, What does it do? I get into the details of how the 5.4L's variable cam timing system works.
Just as a quick reference for some people who are unfamiliar with Ford Triton engines, there are three 5.4L engines Ford has used 97-up. The 5.4L 2 valve only has a total of 16 valves for all cylinders. It has noticeably smaller valve covers, does not use a variable valve timing system, but utilizes a fixed timing setup. It was used on several platforms. The 3 valve outperforms this engine in about every way, producing 15ft.lbs more torque and around more 40hp."]
--------
Then there is the second linked article, which begins:
-------- Quote
["Variable valve or cam timing lets you have it all: advance for good low-end torque, retard for maximum top-end power. To realize max efficiency at every rpm point, the ECU continually varies cam timing by means of a phaser that replaces the conventional upper cam drive sprocket. This is Ford's implementation on the three-valve SOHC modular V-8 engine."]
--------
But what IS confusing about your response, is when you say .... "... I will give up in return for an engine I know will be mechanically more sound." how do the lockouts make the engine more sound? They make the chains last longer, improve the oil pressure or keep the tensioners from leaking oil or guides from breaking?
And, be this the truth and the 5.4 3v is really one gigantic P.O.S, then theory doesn't line up well with the positive review of the Ti-VCT, or the Coyote. You'll need a peck of lockouts for all the phasers on one of them.
But as I have aptly observed, more and more (practically all) engine are going to VVT systems - for some apparently good reason - and lockouts do not make them work BETTER.
------- Quoting
["The Ford 5.4L Triton 3 valve engine is a wonderful masterpiece that many hate and do not understand. Many are confused about the rattling sounds they hear on light acceleration and many people have been told it is the phasers. What is a phaser?, What does it do? I get into the details of how the 5.4L's variable cam timing system works.
Just as a quick reference for some people who are unfamiliar with Ford Triton engines, there are three 5.4L engines Ford has used 97-up. The 5.4L 2 valve only has a total of 16 valves for all cylinders. It has noticeably smaller valve covers, does not use a variable valve timing system, but utilizes a fixed timing setup. It was used on several platforms. The 3 valve outperforms this engine in about every way, producing 15ft.lbs more torque and around more 40hp."]
--------
Then there is the second linked article, which begins:
-------- Quote
["Variable valve or cam timing lets you have it all: advance for good low-end torque, retard for maximum top-end power. To realize max efficiency at every rpm point, the ECU continually varies cam timing by means of a phaser that replaces the conventional upper cam drive sprocket. This is Ford's implementation on the three-valve SOHC modular V-8 engine."]
--------
But what IS confusing about your response, is when you say .... "... I will give up in return for an engine I know will be mechanically more sound." how do the lockouts make the engine more sound? They make the chains last longer, improve the oil pressure or keep the tensioners from leaking oil or guides from breaking?
And, be this the truth and the 5.4 3v is really one gigantic P.O.S, then theory doesn't line up well with the positive review of the Ti-VCT, or the Coyote. You'll need a peck of lockouts for all the phasers on one of them.
But as I have aptly observed, more and more (practically all) engine are going to VVT systems - for some apparently good reason - and lockouts do not make them work BETTER.
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 305
Likes: 37
From: Arizona
Seeing as how the Japanese and the Germans (successfully) rolled-out variable valve-timing nearly 25 years ago (Honda) .... what else can a rodder magazine article do but try to play-up a domestic development in VVT?
Undoubtedly, Ford rushed the 3V to the market and it took them 5 (FIVE!!!) years to put a different head on the 3V to try to improve oiling. The lockouts ARE NOT the SOLUTION; however, short of getting a newer crate motor (with updated heads & Melling oil-pump), the Livernois lockouts offer a usable alternative (to replacing tensioners and phasers every 20-50K miles)
Ford should have the poop sued out of them for the 2004-2007 3V.
Undoubtedly, Ford rushed the 3V to the market and it took them 5 (FIVE!!!) years to put a different head on the 3V to try to improve oiling. The lockouts ARE NOT the SOLUTION; however, short of getting a newer crate motor (with updated heads & Melling oil-pump), the Livernois lockouts offer a usable alternative (to replacing tensioners and phasers every 20-50K miles)
Ford should have the poop sued out of them for the 2004-2007 3V.
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 17
Likes: 1
OK, I'm replying one more time for those of you that will read this thread in its entirety because you have one of these trucks, are experiencing issues and like me, enjoy some of the engineering coolness...and believe in their ability to learn and repair what they drive.
I LOVE THIS TRUCK. But it ain't perfect. The articles describe the engineering aspect of these engines; I agree with 99.9% of what those experts say...as quoted by F150torqued:
"The 3 valve outperforms this engine in about every way, producing 15ft.lbs more torque and around more 40hp."
S_Vares began by helping us uneducated 5.4 types to repair this engine back to factory condition. (God bless that man!)...(and by factory condition I don't mean you'll have that new truck smell).
It evolved here to include discussion regarding the phaser benefits, inherent noise and the weaknesses they have. The attempt to perfect phaser operation has been going on for decades.
Note the word "about" every way. Off the assembly line, this motor is awesome. Over time, compared to competitor's designs, it is a POS. So locking the phasers has become an answer for one of this motors' weaknesses. (Don't forget the spark plugs)...And for me, UP TO 7% loss of horsepower and UP TO 15 pounds of torque I will live with.
"How do the lockouts make the engine more sound? They make the chains last longer, improve the oil pressure or keep the tensioners from leaking oil or guides from breaking?"
The lockouts make the engine more sound by eliminating the phaser operation. We are talking about engines that are experiencing failures in major components with less than 100k miles on them produced from 2004-2008. These phasers rattle and fail prematurely (In my humble, Non-ASE certified, backyard, beer-drinkin, radio-blarin...opinion), aided in part or whole by some of the components around them that must operate correctly in order for the oil pressure used to variate the timing, failing also; IE, the tensioner gaskets, which cause oil pressure loss, which causes timing imperfection and starves the top end of oil. Which has caused cam failures, or perhaps it should be said, cam component failures.
"But as I have aptly observed, more and more (practically all) engine are going to VVT systems"
Careful, don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back... But yes, Engine manufacturers will continue to improve and try to perfect the VCT systems.
Here's the conclusion: Replace your phasers with new ones and repair all the timing components to OEM specs. I will repair my timing components and install lockouts on the existing phasers. I got a dollar bet to a donut you will be repairing some of those future components before I will...
Like my Dad always said..."Son, get me another beer!"
I LOVE THIS TRUCK. But it ain't perfect. The articles describe the engineering aspect of these engines; I agree with 99.9% of what those experts say...as quoted by F150torqued:
"The 3 valve outperforms this engine in about every way, producing 15ft.lbs more torque and around more 40hp."
S_Vares began by helping us uneducated 5.4 types to repair this engine back to factory condition. (God bless that man!)...(and by factory condition I don't mean you'll have that new truck smell).
It evolved here to include discussion regarding the phaser benefits, inherent noise and the weaknesses they have. The attempt to perfect phaser operation has been going on for decades.
Note the word "about" every way. Off the assembly line, this motor is awesome. Over time, compared to competitor's designs, it is a POS. So locking the phasers has become an answer for one of this motors' weaknesses. (Don't forget the spark plugs)...And for me, UP TO 7% loss of horsepower and UP TO 15 pounds of torque I will live with.
"How do the lockouts make the engine more sound? They make the chains last longer, improve the oil pressure or keep the tensioners from leaking oil or guides from breaking?"
The lockouts make the engine more sound by eliminating the phaser operation. We are talking about engines that are experiencing failures in major components with less than 100k miles on them produced from 2004-2008. These phasers rattle and fail prematurely (In my humble, Non-ASE certified, backyard, beer-drinkin, radio-blarin...opinion), aided in part or whole by some of the components around them that must operate correctly in order for the oil pressure used to variate the timing, failing also; IE, the tensioner gaskets, which cause oil pressure loss, which causes timing imperfection and starves the top end of oil. Which has caused cam failures, or perhaps it should be said, cam component failures.
"But as I have aptly observed, more and more (practically all) engine are going to VVT systems"
Careful, don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back... But yes, Engine manufacturers will continue to improve and try to perfect the VCT systems.
Here's the conclusion: Replace your phasers with new ones and repair all the timing components to OEM specs. I will repair my timing components and install lockouts on the existing phasers. I got a dollar bet to a donut you will be repairing some of those future components before I will...
Like my Dad always said..."Son, get me another beer!"
Junior Member
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 17
Likes: 1
Well Said...
Seeing as how the Japanese and the Germans (successfully) rolled-out variable valve-timing nearly 25 years ago (Honda) .... what else can a rodder magazine article do but try to play-up a domestic development in VVT?
Undoubtedly, Ford rushed the 3V to the market and it took them 5 (FIVE!!!) years to put a different head on the 3V to try to improve oiling. The lockouts ARE NOT the SOLUTION; however, short of getting a newer crate motor (with updated heads & Melling oil-pump), the Livernois lockouts offer a usable alternative (to replacing tensioners and phasers every 20-50K miles)
Ford should have the poop sued out of them for the 2004-2007 3V.
Undoubtedly, Ford rushed the 3V to the market and it took them 5 (FIVE!!!) years to put a different head on the 3V to try to improve oiling. The lockouts ARE NOT the SOLUTION; however, short of getting a newer crate motor (with updated heads & Melling oil-pump), the Livernois lockouts offer a usable alternative (to replacing tensioners and phasers every 20-50K miles)
Ford should have the poop sued out of them for the 2004-2007 3V.
Brevity is the soul of wit.