The Final Repair Guide to 5.4 Cam Phaser Tick/Knock Sound
07-16-2015, 07:04 AM
#2111
I mentioned this because during my research on this job, all the official manuals and most videos show a removal of cam followers . The phasers were not removed in my case, as I had previously installed the lockouts.
07-16-2015, 11:37 AM
#2112
F150 Forum
Half truths...
Top end starves for oil because the damn tensioner seals leak out, causing all the issues we have with these motors.
Someone going an replacing their cam phasers and installing your lockout kit is a joke and at best is hiding the true culprit.
So someone replaces their cam phaser and lockout and as you suggest, according to what you have wrote, not replace other stuff that actually caused the problem, now has a ticking time bomb, that will cost them a complete top end overhaul eventually when they lose all their lash adjusters, and rockers, perhaps even worse. I guess they wont be hearing them cam phasers though....Just everything else.
Best word of advice people.. Do the job right, and use the older 16 valve steel tensioners. Better built and low fail rate compared to the plastic pieces of crap.
Mike
Top end starves for oil because the damn tensioner seals leak out, causing all the issues we have with these motors.
Someone going an replacing their cam phasers and installing your lockout kit is a joke and at best is hiding the true culprit.
So someone replaces their cam phaser and lockout and as you suggest, according to what you have wrote, not replace other stuff that actually caused the problem, now has a ticking time bomb, that will cost them a complete top end overhaul eventually when they lose all their lash adjusters, and rockers, perhaps even worse. I guess they wont be hearing them cam phasers though....Just everything else.
Best word of advice people.. Do the job right, and use the older 16 valve steel tensioners. Better built and low fail rate compared to the plastic pieces of crap.
Mike
Unfortunately this is not the case. If it were, replacing the entire timing system and oil pump would make it last at least as long as the original factory components, yet we have customers that spend 2-3,000 replacing all of this just to need it in as little as 500 miles. Maybe they'll be lucky and have it last 10,000, maybe 20,000 miles, but it always comes back in a dramatically shorter amount of time than it took it to fail in the first place. This is why replacing everything is really the band-aid. You are just putting on parts that are at their tightest tolerance, and have zero wear picking up the slack for everything else. Eventually those components wear out, and since they are doing extra work because of the engine being out of spec, they wear out faster than before. So it's a cycle, you replace the parts, they wear out faster, the engine continues to wear, and the next time they wear out even quicker.
We sell hundreds upon hundreds of these a month, and the vast majority of the time it's for people that have done what you are suggesting, and the noise came back. Where our kit makes it impossible for the phaser to lose control because we convert it to a fixed gear.
It boils down to this. $700 once, or treat the front timing system as a maintenance item and begin the viscous cycle of replacing it more and more often with time. To me, $700 once sounds much better than 2-3k every year or so.
07-16-2015, 11:39 AM
#2113
I also understand that the tool is recommended by a manual but its not necessary needed. This was my main point I was trying to convey in post 2109.
.
07-16-2015, 11:58 AM
#2114
IN SHORT.
Both locking (on a phaser like this) & replacing worn parts are "bandaids".
I see both sides of this argument.
In general it depends on what a person wants from there engine.
.
Both locking (on a phaser like this) & replacing worn parts are "bandaids".
I see both sides of this argument.
In general it depends on what a person wants from there engine.
Michael,
Unfortunately this is not the case. If it were, replacing the entire timing system and oil pump would make it last at least as long as the original factory components, yet we have customers that spend 2-3,000 replacing all of this just to need it in as little as 500 miles. Maybe they'll be lucky and have it last 10,000, maybe 20,000 miles, but it always comes back in a dramatically shorter amount of time than it took it to fail in the first place. This is why replacing everything is really the band-aid. You are just putting on parts that are at their tightest tolerance, and have zero wear picking up the slack for everything else. Eventually those components wear out, and since they are doing extra work because of the engine being out of spec, they wear out faster than before. So it's a cycle, you replace the parts, they wear out faster, the engine continues to wear, and the next time they wear out even quicker.
We sell hundreds upon hundreds of these a month, and the vast majority of the time it's for people that have done what you are suggesting, and the noise came back. Where our kit makes it impossible for the phaser to lose control because we convert it to a fixed gear.
It boils down to this. $700 once, or treat the front timing system as a maintenance item and begin the viscous cycle of replacing it more and more often with time. To me, $700 once sounds much better than 2-3k every year or so.
Unfortunately this is not the case. If it were, replacing the entire timing system and oil pump would make it last at least as long as the original factory components, yet we have customers that spend 2-3,000 replacing all of this just to need it in as little as 500 miles. Maybe they'll be lucky and have it last 10,000, maybe 20,000 miles, but it always comes back in a dramatically shorter amount of time than it took it to fail in the first place. This is why replacing everything is really the band-aid. You are just putting on parts that are at their tightest tolerance, and have zero wear picking up the slack for everything else. Eventually those components wear out, and since they are doing extra work because of the engine being out of spec, they wear out faster than before. So it's a cycle, you replace the parts, they wear out faster, the engine continues to wear, and the next time they wear out even quicker.
We sell hundreds upon hundreds of these a month, and the vast majority of the time it's for people that have done what you are suggesting, and the noise came back. Where our kit makes it impossible for the phaser to lose control because we convert it to a fixed gear.
It boils down to this. $700 once, or treat the front timing system as a maintenance item and begin the viscous cycle of replacing it more and more often with time. To me, $700 once sounds much better than 2-3k every year or so.
.
07-16-2015, 01:11 PM
#2115
IN LONG
Depends & a opinion.
Craps anyone?
Yes as the engine wears oil psi drops.
As Michael noted, if the chain tensoner blows a seal than the oil psi drops.
The plastic tensioners are a poor design.
The timing system needs constant oil pressure (from the oilpump) as the timing system has hydraulic parts (aka VCTs, Phasers, Tensoners).
The basic engine parts needs constant oil flow.
Why ford used a high volume oil pump as standard on the 3-valve engine.
Why steel backingplates (among other options) are now recommended on oilpumps to reduce the leakage at the oilpumps backplate as rpms increase.
The phaser in question is a poor design for reliability (mainly the lock pin wears allows the phaser to jump around, in which allows the chains to slap the guides).
The "lock-out band-aid" is to make the phaser work as reliable as the phasers are on the 2-valve engines (Its not phaser but just a standard none moving sprocket).
VERY GOOD info on cam phaser performance below.
A) http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/threa...asers-vct.848/
Ford’s primary reason for using cam phasers was to increase the engine’s efficiency by reducing its pumping losses during part throttle cruise conditions.
Basically, when the cams are retarded 20-40 degrees during part throttle engine operation, it takes less power to turn the engine over. This not only helps to increase the engine’s fuel efficiency, but an additional power benefit is also realized.
The variable cam phasers allow the camshafts to be adjusted to the proper position for maximum power during wide-open throttle operation regardless of the current engine rpm. This results in an engine that makes more torque and horsepower and extends the high rpm power-band by an additional 800-1000 rpm.
B) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Cam_Timing
The cam phasers allows for more optimum engine performance, reduced emissions, and increased fuel efficiency compared to engines with fixed camshafts
C) COMP CAMS
http://www.compperformancegroupstore...duct_Code=5449
Cam phasers are specially designed, computer-controlled cam gears that automatically optimize camshaft timing based on the current engine rpm.
Engine oil is pressure fed to the cam phasers through a series of passageways in the cylinder heads and camshafts. The engine computers control solenoids that adjust this oil flow into and out of the phaser’s control chambers, giving the ability to retard the cams up to 60 crank degrees.
While this technology provides tremendous efficiency benefits, such as fuel efficiency and the ability to always be in the best position for maximum power, regardless of engine rpm, it does present some limitations when it comes to performance camshafts. With such a wide range of valve timing movement, there is very little piston to valve clearance, which limits you to small cam profiles with little overlap.
PLUG
Point taken.
OTHER
I personally like the option of the computer controlling the cam as I have some control over it.
I will accept the phaser as a maintenance item.
I dont accept (I bought the truck so I did accept it) fords design of the plastic tensioner & oilpump leakage.
.
yet we have customers that spend 2-3,000 replacing all of this just to need it in as little as 500 miles. Maybe they'll be lucky and have it last 10,000, maybe 20,000 miles, but it always comes back in a dramatically shorter amount of time than it took it to fail in the first place.
This is why replacing everything is really the band-aid. You are just putting on parts that are at their tightest tolerance, and have zero wear picking up the slack for everything else. Eventually those components wear out, and since they are doing extra work because of the engine being out of spec, they wear out faster than before. So it's a cycle, you replace the parts, they wear out faster, the engine continues to wear, and the next time they wear out even quicker.
As Michael noted, if the chain tensoner blows a seal than the oil psi drops.
The plastic tensioners are a poor design.
The timing system needs constant oil pressure (from the oilpump) as the timing system has hydraulic parts (aka VCTs, Phasers, Tensoners).
The basic engine parts needs constant oil flow.
Why ford used a high volume oil pump as standard on the 3-valve engine.
Why steel backingplates (among other options) are now recommended on oilpumps to reduce the leakage at the oilpumps backplate as rpms increase.
The phaser in question is a poor design for reliability (mainly the lock pin wears allows the phaser to jump around, in which allows the chains to slap the guides).
The "lock-out band-aid" is to make the phaser work as reliable as the phasers are on the 2-valve engines (Its not phaser but just a standard none moving sprocket).
VERY GOOD info on cam phaser performance below.
A) http://www.cpgnation.com/forum/threa...asers-vct.848/
Ford’s primary reason for using cam phasers was to increase the engine’s efficiency by reducing its pumping losses during part throttle cruise conditions.
Basically, when the cams are retarded 20-40 degrees during part throttle engine operation, it takes less power to turn the engine over. This not only helps to increase the engine’s fuel efficiency, but an additional power benefit is also realized.
The variable cam phasers allow the camshafts to be adjusted to the proper position for maximum power during wide-open throttle operation regardless of the current engine rpm. This results in an engine that makes more torque and horsepower and extends the high rpm power-band by an additional 800-1000 rpm.
B) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Cam_Timing
The cam phasers allows for more optimum engine performance, reduced emissions, and increased fuel efficiency compared to engines with fixed camshafts
C) COMP CAMS
http://www.compperformancegroupstore...duct_Code=5449
Cam phasers are specially designed, computer-controlled cam gears that automatically optimize camshaft timing based on the current engine rpm.
Engine oil is pressure fed to the cam phasers through a series of passageways in the cylinder heads and camshafts. The engine computers control solenoids that adjust this oil flow into and out of the phaser’s control chambers, giving the ability to retard the cams up to 60 crank degrees.
While this technology provides tremendous efficiency benefits, such as fuel efficiency and the ability to always be in the best position for maximum power, regardless of engine rpm, it does present some limitations when it comes to performance camshafts. With such a wide range of valve timing movement, there is very little piston to valve clearance, which limits you to small cam profiles with little overlap.
We sell hundreds upon hundreds of these a month, and the vast majority of the time it's for people that have done what you are suggesting, and the noise came back. Where our kit makes it impossible for the phaser to lose control because we convert it to a fixed gear.
OTHER
I personally like the option of the computer controlling the cam as I have some control over it.
I will accept the phaser as a maintenance item.
I dont accept (I bought the truck so I did accept it) fords design of the plastic tensioner & oilpump leakage.
.
Last edited by Fordjunkync; 07-20-2015 at 12:41 AM.
The following 2 users liked this post by Fordjunkync:
ElliotTheCarpenter (07-18-2015),
F150Torqued (07-17-2015)
07-16-2015, 11:20 PM
#2116
I'm currently getting better gas mileage than most ecoboost drivers and only had blown tensioners causing my problem. I would consider your product if I was to supercharge my engine but it's just a work truck. Besides it's a pretty easy job once you know how to do it.
07-17-2015, 02:10 PM
#2117
IN LONG
Depends & a opinion.
Craps anyone?
Yes as the engine wears oil psi drops.
As Michael noted, if the chain tensoner blows a seal than the oil psi drops.
The plastic tensioners are a poor design.
The timing system needs constant oil pressure (from the oilpump) as the timing system has hydraulic parts (aka VCTs, Phasers, Tensoners).
The basic engine parts needs constant oil flow.
Why ford used a high volume oil pump as standard on the 3-valve engine.
Why steel backingplates (among other options) are now recommended on oilpumps to reduce the leakage at the oilpumps backplate as rpms increase.
The phaser in question is a poor design for reliability & so the "lock-out band-aid" is to make the phaser work as reliable as the phasers are on the 2-valve engines (a standard none moving sprocket).
After locking the phasor you will lose these options https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Cam_Timing
Variable Camshaft Timing (VCT) It allows for more optimum engine performance, reduced emissions, and increased fuel efficiency compared to engines with fixed camshafts
PLUG
Point taken.
OTHER
I personally like the option of the computer controlling the cam as I have some control over it.
I will accept the phaser as a maintenance item.
I dont accept (I bought the truck so I did accept it) fords design of the plastic tensioner & oilpump leakage.
.
Depends & a opinion.
Craps anyone?
Yes as the engine wears oil psi drops.
As Michael noted, if the chain tensoner blows a seal than the oil psi drops.
The plastic tensioners are a poor design.
The timing system needs constant oil pressure (from the oilpump) as the timing system has hydraulic parts (aka VCTs, Phasers, Tensoners).
The basic engine parts needs constant oil flow.
Why ford used a high volume oil pump as standard on the 3-valve engine.
Why steel backingplates (among other options) are now recommended on oilpumps to reduce the leakage at the oilpumps backplate as rpms increase.
The phaser in question is a poor design for reliability & so the "lock-out band-aid" is to make the phaser work as reliable as the phasers are on the 2-valve engines (a standard none moving sprocket).
After locking the phasor you will lose these options https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Cam_Timing
Variable Camshaft Timing (VCT) It allows for more optimum engine performance, reduced emissions, and increased fuel efficiency compared to engines with fixed camshafts
PLUG
Point taken.
OTHER
I personally like the option of the computer controlling the cam as I have some control over it.
I will accept the phaser as a maintenance item.
I dont accept (I bought the truck so I did accept it) fords design of the plastic tensioner & oilpump leakage.
.
Thank you for your post Fordjunk.
I think Livernois is not understanding the point I was trying to make.
You can slap a lock out kit on new cam phasers, drop them in, and call it done sure, assuming your timing guides are still okay.
But if the true culprit that has caused these issues in the first place are not replaced, timing tensioners and smaller possibility of it being an oil pump, then your top end is still not getting the oil it requires.
You have turned a cam phaser into a non moving sprocket, and the rest of the top end is starving for oil, causing stuck lash adjusters, broken rockers, failed cams, and more.
Yes, I understand engine tolerances, and the argument that putting new part with old perhaps could cause premature wear on those parts, however using just your lockout kit and not taking care of the root cause of the issue is just silly.
Mike
07-17-2015, 02:14 PM
#2118
At best, I will agree that people will be saved from having to buy new cam phasers in the future, each time they have to replace their other timing components. ( If they make it that far )
Mike
Mike
07-17-2015, 09:54 PM
#2119
Wow I think there is some misunderstanding here. The phazers are oil driven for sure. Locking out the phasers and the VCTs helps to ensure that the engine has better oiling as it ages. Replacing worn chains and leaky tensioners restores oil pressure and obviously goes a long way to ensure reliability. My point is that this combination fixes the issue and ensures a long life.
The factory tensioners have a poor gasket design and the new tensioners have a much better o-ring gasket.
BTW, not sure why FordJunc keeps referring to the tensioners as plastic. All versions are metal.
Maybe he has never done this job himself, but I do know that the guides are a nylon material. Maybe this is what he is referring to ? If the tensioners are working correctly, than the chain will not be beating on the guides, causing their destruction . Have seen many of these motors with over 300k and never opened.
The factory tensioners have a poor gasket design and the new tensioners have a much better o-ring gasket.
BTW, not sure why FordJunc keeps referring to the tensioners as plastic. All versions are metal.
Maybe he has never done this job himself, but I do know that the guides are a nylon material. Maybe this is what he is referring to ? If the tensioners are working correctly, than the chain will not be beating on the guides, causing their destruction . Have seen many of these motors with over 300k and never opened.
07-18-2015, 12:27 AM
#2120
Senior Member
The Final Repair Guide to 5.4 Cam Phaser Tick/Knock Sound
Not really. The oil still follows the same passages. The VCT solenoids still function. The difference is the phasers just don't "phase," or move. You're dead on about the tensioners needing a proper seal though. The tensioners are plastic with a metal push rod, btw. The 2v 5.4 has full metal tensioners.
